What is a woman? **Mod Note In Post #294**

ruth...less

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122046652#Comment_122046652

True and Im not saying I have the answers lol I suppose we need society and laws around society's values. We need it in order to function collectively. For example the majority of men are physically stronger than women so we need to take that into account in situations...Im not talking about trans in sports...I'm talking in general in life.

Like I said in my original post on here I'm all about acceptance ..I hate that trans people feel they have to have a 'funeral' for their past self. Societies and past societies have not accounted for trans people and so you have a rebellion of that. I mean people that don't fit the standards of society. Perhaps we are just in the middle of a movement towards ...towards I don't know what...but I understand a conflict on all sides because I very much identify with the definitions that society gives me but I cant imagine the confusion or hurt or even anger if that wasn't the case. Not sure if that makes sense lol

ruth...less

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122046977#Comment_122046977

'im so glad society has moved on'

'Me too'.....beeker.

There is a thing I remember seeing on tv before about Thailand and recognising a 'third gender' but it might still be offensive to people.

Society has moved on ye somewhat but laws and a good majority of people are still catching up. I've often experienced homophobia (not towards me and I don't know how to react sometimes) and sexism (I'm not talking bout someone making a dumb blond joke which I often find funny..more than that and it can be from women too).

Some people are...in social situations predisposed to go at people they deem as "weaker" whether that's because they have feminine traits or for whatever reason (blokes who are heterosexual can get it too) and imo it goes back to the physical strength biologically or sometimes they feel backed up by society) and I'm saying that as a woman who relates in my own life.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931247#Comment_121931247

Mad how you got offended there, you should probably read the original post and see if it mentions anything of the nature.

ruth...less

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122047176#Comment_122047176

No I just heard about the 3rd sexuality thing. I don't know anything about that. I was just talking about the idea of it..not how the implement of it is abused.

Guildenstern

This is a question I was planning to ask everyone who comes to the door knocking for my vote.

I'm setting a very low threshold for the number of succinct and coherent responses.

89897

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122047260#Comment_122047260

There are cultures around the world that for hundreds of years have recognised 3rd genders and it has nothing to do with sex or sexuality and not deviant.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122047307#Comment_122047307

"What is a woman?"

"An adult human female. Anything else I can answer?"

…..

"What are you doing to address the housing crisis?"

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034800#Comment_122034800

I think most people would find that reasonable. It's really only the edge cases that create controversy where people abuse the 'you're a woman if you say you are' concept of self-identification or where there is a need to objectively sort between female and male, like in sports.

I think the trans thing can also be seen as one theatre in the battle between individualism and collectivism. Are you the complete author of your own story where you get to pick your own values and sort of your own reality, or must people adhere to a commonly-held set of principles and be shunned if they fail to do so?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122049239#Comment_122049239

But isn't every aspect of identity a battle between individualism and collectivism? If you identify as being Irish, being gay or bring a catholic, is that not also part of the theater? If we live in an (allegedly) free country, then individuality should be respected, should it not; where the individual is doing no harm to the collective?

If someone says, for example, you're not Irish because you don't speak Irish aren't they also adhering to a set of principles? Do we kowtow to the collective and force people to conform, or do we embrace the freedom of individuality?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122048584#Comment_122048584

Recognising a third gender is a very different thing from saying that men can actually be women because they have a feeling in their head that tells them so.

I'd have no problem with having a third gender - although in practice it seems to occur in societies with very rigid stereotypes, and the third gender seems to be destined for sex work rather than actually being accepted in normal society, so I'm not sure you're right about it having nothing to do with sex or sexuality. In Thailand, "Ladyboys" are definitely male prostitutes. I don't think you find them going to university and becoming doctors. Or even nurses!

I think it would be so much better if we decided to change society instead, so that boys can still be boys even if they like wearing dresses and playing with Barbie dolls, and "tomboy" girls can just be girls who like short hair and want to become engineers or truck drivers. But still girls.

That said, if we had an open discussion about it, like we did about abortion, and people decided to have a third gender for anyone who didn't fit their own gender, I'd be grand with that. What I don't want are men taking women's places in sports etc. Nor enabling sex abusers to claim to be women so as to get easier access to victims in prisons or elsewhere, as has happened in the UK and the US. But that's not anti trans. It's just acknowledging that abusers will use any ruse to get easier access. Some of them spent years becoming priests FFS, so making a self declaration of being a woman, like Isla Bryson/Adam Graham did, in order to get into a female prison, is simple in comparison.

89897

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122049802#Comment_122049802

This isnt necessarily what i was responding to, poster i was responding to was equating the 3rd gender to sexual deviency just because sadly Thailand has attracted alot of it. I was saying its not unique to Thailand and not always to do with sexuality and was around waaay longer than the current trans discourse.

Some Ladyboys are prostitutes but not all are. In alot of these cultures the notion of gender was based in what role in society you played rather than the sex you were born into. In many of them the rigid stereotypes and discrimination only came once the Europeans and the church arrived.

Its not at all anti-trans to not want sex abusers to claim to be women with the sole purpose of abusing people but thats a small amount of trans people but some use this as a stick to disregard the needs to all trans people. I agree that an open balanced discussion would be great but sadly social media has made that almost impossible right now.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122049278#Comment_122049278

More like, you are not Irish because you are not an Irish citizen, you can call yourself Irish all you like, millions of Americans do this, doesn't change the fact that they are not Irish.

As for doing no harm, thats your opinion.

Also its ironic that these individuals want to be individual whilst also requiring society to redefine the very collective that they are eager to be part of.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122049983#Comment_122049983

In alot of these cultures the notion of gender was based in what role in society you played rather than the sex you were born into.

I don't understand this: can you give an example?

In many of them the rigid stereotypes and discrimination only came once the Europeans and the church arrived.

What's your level of proof for this? Because I've seen this claim made before - not specifically about gender, but also about slavery or about tribal enmities or skin-colour preferences. They're mostly a bunch of "noble savage" stereotypes themselves, spread by Europeans as much as by indigenous peoples. For instance, the Chinese didn't prize pale skin because of Europeans, but because it showed wealth, ie not having to work in fields. Other examples are equally anecdotic, albeit the presence of Europeans no doubt played a role in influencing which characteristics were preferred. But that's just called history - it doesn't mean the stereotypes or the discrimination were created by Europeans, just that their preferences also played into existing preferences in those societies.

Its not at all anti-trans to not want sex abusers to claim to be women with the sole purpose of abusing people but thats a small amount of trans people but some use this as a stick to disregard the needs to all trans people. I agree that an open balanced discussion would be great but sadly social media has made that almost impossible right now.

I'm happy to blame social media for lots of things, but TBH I think the "No Debate" tactic was far more significant in this particular case. Death threats against women like Joanne Rowling for daring to speak up for women, or destroying Graham Linehan's career (after previously having treated him as the Best Boy in Class for his pro choice stance) are why the debate has become so toxic.

Still, I'm delighted that seems to be changing.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050012#Comment_122050012

Doesn't really tackle the point I raised: why are some forms of expression of identity like nationality is acceptable, even encouraged; but others like gender are not?

Not sure what you mean by "asking society to redefine collectives", and you'll find people are tribal and will join collectives where they fit in and allow them to express individuality while being a part of the group. Happens all the time. Don't like it or feel cramped? No one is forcing them to stay. Happens all the time, too.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050430#Comment_122050430

Nationality is definable, everyone is born somewhere. Gender is not.

EmmetSpiceland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050591#Comment_122050591

Didn’t we have a vote so that people born here wouldn’t automatically be Irish?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050591#Comment_122050591

Doesn't answer the question either (even if it was true: both are definable in this context -you can be Irish you can be proud to be Irish; you can be a woman, you can be proud to be a woman). Everyone is born with a gender just as everyone is born somewhere.

Question again: why are some declarations of identity acceptable some not?

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050706#Comment_122050706

how many genders are there? It’s undefinable.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122052047#Comment_122052047

The definition of something is nothing to do with quantity.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122052391#Comment_122052391

If you can’t define what it is, how many there are, etc, it is not quantifiable. It’s a magical, mythical thing that no one can define. There is zero scientific basis for it. It’s “feelings” over facts and not something that should be taken seriously. Time for the adults to take back over and get back to the real world.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122052492#Comment_122052492

gender/ˈdʒɛndə/

nounnoun: gender; plural noun: genders

1. 1. the
   male sex or the female sex, especially when considered with reference
   to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones, or one
   of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.

- - -

Not definable is not the same as not quantifiable - they're two completely different things - I mentioned this in my last post, you ignored it.

I've proven gender can be defined it, I've defined as in a dictionary, I'm done.

Your refusal to acknowlege what a definition is is your issue.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050706#Comment_122050706

You don’t generally get to choose your nationality either - at most someone can choose from a limited number of nationalities for which they fulfill the legally defined criteria. What are the legal criteria for being a woman?

“Feeling like a woman” is about as sensible as saying I’m Japanese because I feel I am. I wonder how far that would get me with my passport application at the Japanese embassy.

But more than that, nationality is a recent development in human society. Sex/gender is not - sex predates humanity. All mammals have a sex and their behaviour (gender, if you like) is highly dependent on their sex. Male lions mostly lie around looking cool while the lionesses do most of the hunting AFAICT. Wild stallions defend their mares, who look after the foals. And so on.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122052723#Comment_122052723

Choice or circumstances aren't relevant either: you can be proud of a nationality you were born into or proud of a nationality you adopted. You can be proud of the gender you were born with or you can proud of the gender you transitioned into.

Why is it acceptable to be proud of expressing something important to who you feel you are, but not to be proud of expressing something else?

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122052664#Comment_122052664

That is not a definition in any way shape or form.

Male sex or female sex or something that’s does not correspond to male sex or female sex. It’s a contradiction if anything.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122052787#Comment_122052787

I’ve no idea what this has to do with the question in the OP. I might be proud of having a long middle toe and I’d be perfectly entitled to be so. We can all be proud of any trait about ourselves that we like.

Of course the fact that I wasn’t identified at birth as someone with a long middle toe and only started to identify as someone with a long middle toe ever since I discovered that such people existed is a little awkward sometimes but still. Why shouldn’t I be proud of identifying into the category of people whose middle toes are longer than their big toes?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122053830#Comment_122053830

Yeah, it's gone off on a tangent alright. But defining something in your personally is akin to identifying as something and then being proud of something. That's where I was coming from anyway.

What is a woman? Who gets to call themselves a woman? Someting like that.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122054076#Comment_122054076

Why is it not just the same definition as with any other female mammal? We don’t pretend to have a different lung system or skeletal system of whatever - and our reproductive system is what actually defines us as mammals.

Seems bizarre to want to ignore millennia of evolution as mammals to pretend that being male or female is something entirely different for humans and much more ephemeral.

It isn’t.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122054236#Comment_122054236

Not really - the question was "what is a woman?" not "what is a female?" so I think we're automatically dealing with the human species.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122054256#Comment_122054256

So if we changed womens/mens changing rooms to female/male changing rooms, and women’s/men’s sports to female/male sports. Everyone would be ok with that and use the correct one? Sounds logical, we should try that. Then anyone can be a woman, but they would still have to use their biological category for certain things.

DUBLINIRL

Difficult question to agree an answer to:)