Plans to end direct rail services between Wexford and Dublin

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984056#Comment_121984056

Is there much space being left between DARTs to facilitate speeding up Rosslare trains these days? I suspect IE would be prioritising more DARTs already.

I liken this bizarre idea to terminating Bus Eireann coach services on the outskirts of Dublin and telling passengers to get a Dublin Bus onwards. If you're going to the airport for example and you have luggage, this means getting out of your comfy coach seat, getting out your luggage to schlep onto a local Dublin Bus, passengers would soon decide "Forget this" and look for alternatives.

TheChrisD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121985029#Comment_121985029

Yet, the roads between Dublin Airport and Busáras aren't exactly single-lane all the way and already pretty close to capacity.

AndB456

I thought it was to switch at Bray? If it was Bray I would use the train as the current times are so limited but if it's a switch any further south of Bray I wouldn't bother. I can't see them linking a useable service.

ohographite

I don't see the need for ending direct services from the Rosslare line to Dublin. Additional capacity on the DART off peak is less important than additional capacity during peak times, so it shouldn't be a problem to keep Rosslare trains going into and out of Dublin off peak. If you keep the Rosslare trains out of Dublin, I think you'll only make room on the tracks for 6 more DART trains a day (because there are 6 trains a day each way on the Rosslare line) , most of which would be off peak.

There is only one Rosslare train a day that leaves Dublin during what I'd call evening peak time(it leaves connolly at 17:33) and only one Rosslare train a day that comes into Dublin during what I call morning peak time(it reaches connolly at 8:46) so if they are robbing Dublin of an extra peak time DART each, I suppose I'd understand keeping just those two out of Dublin and running them to/from BRAY(which is better connected to Dublin by buses than Greystones or Wicklow, and a bigger town). That still leaves 5 trains a day each way that I definitely think should run to/from central Dublin though, which only robs Dublin of 5 off peak DARTs a day.

Having 5 less DARTs a day would inconvenience, I think, almost no DART users, but I reckon the need to change trains to get to Dublin from anywhere in Wexford(and some parts of Wicklow) would inconvenience almost all Rosslare line users, especially considering it would slow the journey down somewhat, and DART trains have less facilities (there are no toilets, luggage racks, etc. on the DART) It only means that a relatively tiny number of DART passengers will have to wait a relatively tiny bit longer for the next DART to arrive (which they could sometimes even avoid by looking at the timetable).

Some may ask why I think some DART passengers should have to wait a little while for their DART to arrive, when I think that some Rosslare train passengers shouldn't have to change trains to the DART to get to Dublin. I'm not sure if the number of DART users who'd have to wait is bigger than the number of Rosslare train users who'd have to change trains, but I am sure that the latter deserve better travelling conditions than the former because they are mostly making significantly longer journeys (A journey from Gorey to Pearse Station is much longer than a journey from Blackrock to Pearse Station, for example). I think forcing people to change trains from a Rosslare train to a DART just to get to Dublin is a significant disimprovement in travelling conditions, because (like I've said) it adds journey time and the DART has less on board facilities. Also, I think some people might be annoyed by just having to get off a train and onto another one, even if I personally rarely mind doing this.

I definitely think the Rosslare line should have a more frequent service, especially between Dublin and Wicklow, but I don't think this has to (or should) happen by keeping all Rosslare trains out of Dublin. I think they should at least keep the existing off peak Rosslare trains going into and out of Dublin, and maybe they could have the peak time trains and any additional trains only operating as far north as Bray.

TheChrisD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995275#Comment_121995275

If anything it should be the other way around entirely. Keep a peak train or two going all the way (especially the morning 5:30am Rosslare departure which is scheduled to go all the way to Dundalk), but the rest should be shuttles.

You are overlooking the opportunity cost. It takes three hours to go from Rosslare to Dublin; but only two hours from Rosslare to Greystones. Instead of one train doing four full trips all the way (two each direction), it could instead do six shuttle runs (three each direction). Multiply that by however many trains are running the Rosslare services, and you can see how much the frequency can theoretically increase with no need for additional rolling stock or drivers.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996624#Comment_121996624

My concern here (and what fuelled my thought that it could kill off the line) is that if you're trying to propose the train as an alternative to driving, this proposal introduces another level of inconvenience. The question is whether that inconvenience is tolerable or not.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996624#Comment_121996624

but that's not going to happen as you aren't going to have the same train traveling up and down the line all day, the train will still be making the trips it does but then it will run empty through to connolly.
the same trains aren't even on the line all day, they go to connolly and will either run other services, not to mention servicing there which will not be changed.
also the line is already under capacity in terms of carages as trains are already over crowded from early on, so more carrages are going to have to be provided eventually anyway and when dart + is up and running there will be stock freed up.
this is not about delivering more frequent services to south of wicklow as if they were serious about it they would deliver it direct and they could have made a start on it years ago with gradual increases as more stock freed up.
lets say that some how this sub par plan did manage to grow passengers, the next step will be for the NTA to claim that it is passengers off these services who are causing the over crowding issues on the dart, and they will now have to discontinue services south due to the need to free up capacity on dart services.
mark my words if i am wrong on this i will be shocked beyond belief.
this along with all of the other issues is why people should not support this and instead fight to both keep and implement more direct services which will secure the future of the line, bring more growth and end once and for all the outdated mindset that this is a line in decline.

not to mention it will show that finally people in the southeast have had enough of poor public services and paper crack solutions.

dowlingm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997274#Comment_121997274

if additional DART slots divert 1,000 net drivers off roads north from Bray/Greystones but adds 100 drivers originating south of Greystones, is that worth it? Depends who you ask. A South Dublin roads planner would probably sing hallelujahs. An environmentalist would probably condemn it since the south of Greystones people are each driving longer distances.

If the boundary of frequent service / train turn backs could come as far as Wicklow (along with platform extensions to 180m there and at Kilcoole, that’s a reasonably straight run before having to turn west away from the M11 competition and speeds fall off. But that would probably be opposed by the usual suspects since it would drive development even harder in Wicklow and environs.

dowlingm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998053#Comment_121998053

if Ballina can have a DMU shuttle to Manulla and only exchanged to/from Limerick once a week or whatever, why would it be assumed that a (yes, longer) shuttle to/from Rosslare would require a daily or better run into Connolly?

One of the reasons I think Wicklow would be a good place to extend some DART service to and turn the Rosslare trains is that there is room to lengthen the existing station platforms to 180m but also to put one or more storage and servicing tracks north of the existing platforms. Greystones is a pretty constrained station area.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122153191#Comment_122153191

because the trains that operate Ballina are based out of limerick and the diagramming and maintenence regime takes Ballina into account as the 2800 sets aren't worked as hard and generally stay around the limerick area apart from the Ballina set and the odd jaunt to cork to replace a 26 or to help out.
different for rosslare as the set needs to get back to dublin, especially if it's a 29 as it will be needed on a suburban, and in the case of the 22000s they are diagrammed to eventually get them back to the depots so one set that comes from rosslare could end up god knows where after it arrives in connolly, the servicing and maintenence regimes wouldn't change on either classes just to suit ideological nonsense from the NTA that has no actual need to be implemented.
there is not going to be servicing facilities built on the rosslare line, it would make no sense what soever, especially when usership south of the turnback would fall with this proposal anyway to a trickle of die hards.

dowlingm

just to be clear by servicing I mean in the “cleaning/toilet emptying/fuelling” sense - whatever is done in Ballina, not building a full depot

Beta Ray Bill

@bk

Sorry I'm only reading the thread now, and seen this:

Howth is becoming a shuttle service under Dart+

Just to be clear, this is happening because the most common failure on the main line is the points at Howth Junction. The plan is to leave them set for Kilbarrack ←→ Portmarnock 99% of the time thus avoiding the issue. A signal controller working for Irish rail explained this to me. It's nothing to do with efficiency or min maxing, it's a work around for an intermittent mechanical problem.

That being said I do think that switching trains should be on the table for infrequent services at junctions, but not on a single line or on a Rapid transit system.

The points at Howth Junction have had upgrades over the years but they're still sitting on old wooden sleepers and the core mechanical system of how they work has not changed a whole lot.

Every cat and dog in the street knows a 3rd track is what's needed. Or at least modify some of the stations so they are like Clongriffin allowing trains to overtake one another. Looking North, the obvious choices are Clontarf Road and Raheny.

Looking South there are options along the coast but the problem is all the level crossings…. If only there was an elevated rail system from the South into somewhere like Harcourt St… Oh wait… 😂🤣

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122244681#Comment_122244681

It has far more to do with the desire to increase frequency on the Northern Line north of Howth Junction, and also to reduce the numbers of conflicts - every train that crosses from the mainline to the Howth branch reduces the number of services that can operate on the mainline in both directions.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122247223#Comment_122247223

We'll agree to disagree, I'm only relaying what I've been told by a person that works in CTC.

I think it's a risky move to be honest, it's only 3.5 miles long with 3 stops. (Very short for a branch). A feeder bus service would be significantly cheaper than operating a 3.5 mile branch. Either that or people will get the H3 or the 6

Worst case scenario the service is stopped cause no one uses it and tracks get lifted. (I get that's extreme but it's not impossible) It would also be political suicide, ripping up track in this day and age is not gonna win votes 🤣

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122248065#Comment_122248065

The branch is not going to be closed under any scenario. That’s just pure nonsense and frankly isn’t even worth discussing.

As for the person in CTC - they aren’t schedulers or service planners. They’re seeing one aspect.

The bottom line is the desire by the NTA to deliver a higher and consistent base frequency all along the Northern line. That cannot be delivered if some services are switching to the branch at Howth Junction.

CramCycle

Let me open by saying I am a daily user of the Wexford line. Let's start with the facts. There aren't enough trains or drivers. The suggestion of a switchover at Greystones is not a runner for multiple reasons, even a legally required accessibility audit would shoot it down.

Would a regular like myself have an issue with it though, not really if done right but there are lots of things to do.

First, the speed needs to be increased asap. It is as quick to drive most of the way up as it is to get the train. If I sleep in, I can still hop in the car and beat the first train to Gorey with ease, even get the earlier Gorey train. The line needs a major overhaul. If I kept driving I'd be in work over an hour earlier.

Second, that god damned bone shaker on the first run. Heating breaks half the time, to the point several regulars bring blankets in the mornings. The only reason for it is that there are so many users if they use the ICR you can't actually get off at Dun Laoghaire or BlackRock.

Third, add extra carriages. They keep using the excuse that one of the stops has too short a platform. BS, do what the UK do and inform people if they are getting off at that stop to use specific carriages, it is not rocket science.

Four, if you want to switch to DART, have it come in behind a DART from Greystones and run in to the left in Bray. No crossing the track, instant turn around, very few commuters will complain. It would suit a few to switch to the 155.

Five, increase frequency in the mornings. People like the train but Wexford Bus and BE are more frequent so people take the risk out. If I miss the 5:57 in Wexford, it is 7:45 before the next one. They should be hourly. Loads of double track that gets used at Gorey and Arklow to pass trains in the other direction.

Lastly, this was only suggested to shut up all the complaints from users about frequency because they knew people would over react about switching trains. I certainly have no issue and neither do most regular commuters on the line.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122248800#Comment_122248800

None of the Irish Rail train fleets are equipped with Selective Door Opening (SDO). The GB fleets do have it which allows them to use certain coaches at short platforms.

Without it there is no chance of trains operating that are longer than a platform at a station that the service they’re operating calls at.

I can’t see speeds changing anytime soon either. You’d be better off building a brand new railway.

LXFlyer

On the scheduling, if you want to maintain a half-hourly DART to/from Greystones, then there are only two paths each hour that can be used between Bray and Greystones in either direction for trains to/from south of Greystones.

A northbound train from south of Greystones would have to run directly in front of a northbound DART, and then it could have a 12 min turnaround at Bray and return 6 mins behind a southbound DART as at present.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122248771#Comment_122248771

I genuinely hope you're correct and I'm wrong.

I'm pessimistic by nature…

I had a look at the Jacobs report for DART+ for Connolly. According to them it's at or near Max. (Northern line)
The plan to use Newcomen is "interesting" and would increase capacity slightly, but according to the report won't deliver 30 trains per hour.

Dart+ is a good project, we need to do it. But I think the NTA are going to have to bite the bullet on this accept that the only way to get the capacity they need/want is to laydown more track and build more platforms. We all know it'll cost a bomb, but I don't see any other option.

That includes the topic for this thread, double tracking at least some of the line allows more trains to run. More frequent trains will entice more people to use the service. Last time I went to Gorey on the train (April) the train was fairly full.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122248942#Comment_122248942

The did of course tender for SDO for the 22ks; but did not proceed with the tender

Were any reasons revealed for that?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249393#Comment_122249393

Never heard why.

But without it there’s not a hope of longer trains on the southeastern line unless they don’t stop at certain stations.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122248942#Comment_122248942

They might get away with the shorter train if they were more regular but the truth is that most of us want to be in work by a certain time so it might not change anything. I thought the ICR can lock out doors but it is manual so I presume IR might have issues from a safety perspective. Maybe though its an overrider of a broken door, not too sure.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249403#Comment_122249403

That won't happen either as the backlash from that area would not be palatable but it could be done, every second train stops there.

Cosmo Kramer

Slightly off topic, but as recently as the 90s or maybe even early 2000s there used to be long special trains to the west after big GAA matches where they would use older fleet and trains that were longer than some of the station platforms. You'd literally have (usually drunk) passengers trying to get off at Ballyhaunis or wherever opening doors and going "nope, no platform there" and then having to run up through another couple of carriages to get off the train!

But yeah, couldn't happen now for obvious reasons.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249505#Comment_122249505

I'm fairly certain that the Friday Only services using Mk2s and Cravens to Sligo etc had this problem right up until their withdrawal in the mid 00s.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249403#Comment_122249403

Or

• Lenghten platforms as required.
• Get train sets with selective Door opening.
• Use a mixture of train lenghts, and the longer train skip stops as required.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249734#Comment_122249734

There physically is no room at Rathdrum to lengthen the platform. That’s the problem.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249505#Comment_122249505

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249511#Comment_122249511

Grandfather rights applied.

But there is no way that the Commission for Railway Regulation would sanction it now.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249971#Comment_122249971

Definitely. At the time you could open the doors on the sets in question anywhere including in motion; let alone off the end of a platform.

I believe the RPSI sets of Craven and Mk2 even have central locking now?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249447#Comment_122249447

There is a difference between a door manually locked out in the case of a defect (which requires the driver to lock it from the outside before the train goes into use and labels to be applied to the door), and selective door opening at short stations which is done using the door control panel by the person opening and closing the doors on stock where SDO is fitted.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122250019#Comment_122250019

But it could be done, and the CSOs can also lock /open these if the driver gives permission. Lock it at the station before, get on, stick on sign, open at next station. An elegantly simple solution. Where no CSO is present, the door remains locked for the journey with signs up which happens. Anyone buying a ticket for Rathdrum can't book a seat on that carriage, CSO announces after every stop that carriage A or D will not open in Rathdrum.