The 2024 All Ireland Senior Football Championship (Sam Maguire Cup)

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122447664#Comment_122447664

I did I was going to say that the AI Final was the exception rather than the rule. I was at that Dublin v Armagh league match it was the year Dublin were relegated from div1, And played Kamikaze stuff. I did plenty of giving out about Dublin that yer.

Maybe I will be proven competely wrong and Armagh will move on the the "next level" as Dublin did when Gilroy first set them up defensively then gradually became more adventurous. And dominate the game for the next decade, but I can't see it. Most of the time when I saw Rian O'Neil he has played within himself in a system rather than being allowed to let loose

I think Galway had the chances even though they played more "careful" than they did v Dublin. Galway were more agressive v Dublin, and that won them the SF. Still though I have the feeling that Galway left the Final behind them. I can't remember the stats fully. But Galway had about 25 shots, 13 wides and about 4 dropped short to the Armagh goalkeeper.

Back in 2010 I remember that Cork team that won Sam they had the equivalent of two good teams. Then all of a sudden it broke up/lads retired and they never got near to winning it since. Which I did not see coming at all.

I was wrong about Cork, I could be wrong about Armagh. It would be great if they could go up to the next level of play for a while.

YabaDabaDooley

Congratulations to Armagh on winning only their second All Ireland. And now Kieran McGeeney is an All Ireland winning captain and All Ireland winning manager in both of those wins. Pretty special legacy for Geezer.

YabaDabaDooley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122447811#Comment_122447811

You've been very negative all year about Armagh. You gave them no chance constantly being dismissive about McGeeney and Armagh's ability to win matches. Not even the slightest bit of praise for how they played in the Ulster final which was a fantastic game of football. It must come as a shock to you that they were indeed good enough to win not only a couple of close games but also good enough to climb the steps of the Hogan Stand. And now that Armagh have won the All Ireland your going on about them getting to next level next year. Who cares about next year. Armagh are All Ireland champions for 2024 and thats all that matters.

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122447557#Comment_122447557

Thanks for your input , but if you had to read over 14 years of childishness and petty jealousy and hatred against your County I'm sure you would respond also.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122447130#Comment_122447130

I'm aware of the reasons for using the strategy. People are entitled to use it but it doesn't meet it is good to watch. Most people would admire more the skill and difficulty involved in kicking a point from 45 metres than handpassing it over from 10.

I'm probably in a minority here but I also don't think the negative strategies used are as advantageous as is commonly thought. We saw both at the end of the All-Ireland final and in the way Derry were set up in the Quarter-final where overly disciplined teams can be their own worst enemy- an unwillingness to attack rapidly for fear of losing the ball ultimately cost both teams. We can also see unexpected dangers arise just from the ball being in and around the square more often- for instance, all 3 goals in the semi-finals this year were from mishit kicks, Tyrone's first goal in the 2021 final just came from booting the ball in. And I also think that as a general rule, the team that is more aggressive attacking will win- you have to score more than your opponent ultimately. But I'm in a minority here, could be wrong, and teams seem set in their ways regardless, with all the negative impact on the quality of the spectacle, so rule changes are required.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122447990#Comment_122447990

Holding off for the high percentage shot absolutely is advantageous. Dublin's dominance was largely built on working a good shooting position and only kicking the ball for that higher percentage shot.

Football is now a possession game and every possession counts. Hitting lots of low % shots means your opponent will likely outscore you in the end.

The only way to counteract this is to blanket defence, or change the rules around tackling to make it easier for a defender, which will then cause more turnovers.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122447542#Comment_122447542

There was defensive teams before, but Dublin were the ones who really perfected the 15 men behind the ball strategy. And as I've said before, negative play is not just about defensiveness, but also the endless handpassing/recycling around the 45, only taking high percentage shots, no high fielding etc. All of these existed to lesser extents before, but Dublin was the team who really solidified them in the game over the last few years and made it into the awful spectacle we see today. Nothing illegal about it, it's within the rules, but let's not pretend it's good to watch. Other teams have copied them now, but this style of play was definitely a Dublin "innovation".

I agree short kickouts have reduced high-fielding and that it is tactically sound within this system of playing. ABut aain, it's just not good to watch, which is what so many viewers have been criticising these last few years. It's not "arguably more skillful and diverse than ever" though, that's clearly false. The game is a much worse spectacle than it was 10, 20, 30 years ago. People don't like this style of play and are quite vocal about it. There are many reasons for the collapse in attendances this year, particularly in Leinster, but one of them is definitely the low skill levels on display. Even using the example of Fenton, he is not being given the chance to showcase his skill fully because of this style of playing. So we see again how it's legal and tactically sound but also not making for a good spectacle. The skills probably are ahead of the 1970s and 1980s but there was a lot of positive change between then and when Dublin introduced and perfected this dour, negative style we've been talking about. So the skills and execution are worse today than in the 1990s, 2000s.

We definitely do need rule changes at this stage to improve the game on display. It's happened in other sports as you say and should happen in Gaelic Football too, there's nothing revolutionary about it.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122447811#Comment_122447811

No one is saying Armagh are going to dominate and win several all irelands. So why refute an argument that nobody is making? What is the point?

Surely there is a middle ground between 'flash in the pan' and 'dominating for several years'

Likewise, nobody is saying the Clare hurlers are flash in the pan, but they certainly arent considered dead certs to win next year….

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448038#Comment_122448038

Again, negative play is not just about 15 men behind the ball or just about only taking high percentage shots- it's all these things combined. Taking the standard strategy used by teams nowadays, it's good to up a point, but I think it can be overdone- Derry were far too defensive vs Kerry, Kerry were far too defensive vs Armagh etc. You need to score as well and one way to obtain such scores is by moving the ball into your opponents half at pace and actually taking things on.

As I've said before, these tactics are deemed to be good by almost every team, and if teams keep using them, and neutral interest keeps falling away, then it's on the GAA to change the rules, not any individual team to change it's tactics.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448076#Comment_122448076

The overly negative tactics don't win championships though.

Armagh were more proactive and attacking team in the final and it paid off - Galway's lateral handpassing and slow pace moving the ball forward cost them

Other than Kerry 2014 have any very negative teams actually won an AI? Attacking football usually triumphs

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122439117#Comment_122439117

1-11 would've won the finals of 2014, 2012, 2009, 2007, and drawn the 2008 and 2011 finals. And lost the finals of '16, '19,' 20, and '21 by just a point. Armagh's score is not quite the outlier you might think. Finals tend to be cagey affairs with well-tested and organised defences operating.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448053#Comment_122448053

Bit counter intuitive to say attacking teams are the ones perfecting negative play.

Also - if you look at finals in the 1980s/1990s/2000s - Dublin scored a lot more in their AI final wins of the 2010s than those teams would have done.

The game has just evolved, Dublin arguably responded to the blanket defense but they were a great attacking team. There is absolutely no question about that.

They had 6 or 7 forwards, any of whom could be considered an all time great - the two Brogans, Kilkenny, Mannion, O'Callaghan, Rock, Connolly, McMenamin, Flynn. There is a Hall of Fame in that alone.

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448204#Comment_122448204

No it wouldn't - it would have been enough to beat the losing team but not enough to beat the winning team:

2014: Kerry 2-9

2012: Donegal 2-11

2009: Kerry 0-16

2007: Kerry 3-13

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122447990#Comment_122447990

Yep you are wrong

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448053#Comment_122448053

More anti Dublin nonsense

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448173#Comment_122448173

Yeah I agree it can be overdone. Armagh were definitely more aggressive attacking vs Galway, I agree there, as they were against Kerry in the semi-final too. I would say they are far better at getting forward quickly, attacking at pace rather than handpassing endlessly around the 45 than basically every team this year. But more the overall standard of play is far more defensive than it was 10, 20 years ago.

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448205#Comment_122448205

As before, "negative" play is not just 15 men behind the ball. It's also the endless handpassing, lack of high fielding, only taking easy shots from close in. All legal, just not good to watch, which is why we've seen this outcry over the last few years as Dublin introduced and perfected this standard, and other copied them. So by the standards of the last 10, 20, 30 years, Dublin played a very dour, negative style of football.- as well as the other negative play, they played what is now normal but what is by historical standards very defensive. So there is no absolutely no question in fact that they were and are a defensive team!

They'd great players for sure, and they found a strategy that worked for them as they are entitled to do. Although not a strategy which fully showcased the individual skills of their players, but that's not their overall objective, which is just to win. But it's been bad for the game as a spectacle. Others have now copied them so while Armagh are more one of the more attacking teams nowadays, the benchmark for everyone is on the whole far more negative. People can try to wish this way but if the game really was as skillful and good to watch as people claim, we wouldn't be seeing all of this hand wringing.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448228#Comment_122448228

You are missing the point. The score would have been enough to win if the winners had scored it. I'm assuming there would not be three teams playing in the final.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448204#Comment_122448204

This is 100% correct - its about the norm for 1980s/1990s/2000s.

The (hashtag) great Kerry team of under Micko beat Roscommon 1-9 to 1-6 in 1980, the following year they beat Offaly 1-12 to 0.8. Three years later they beat Dublin 14 points to 1-6. A year earlier Dublin beat Galway 1-10 points to 1-8, including I think 5 pointed frees from Barney Rock?

So 4 finals out 5 with a lower score, and I'd guess a lot more scores from fees.

This years final was way way better than any of the above games, far better.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448053#Comment_122448053

Dublin were the saviours of Gaelic Football in the past decade rather than being the ones who perfected the defensive game. They were the team with the quality to unlock this huge negativity. You might find the coming years (unless the FDC brings about positive changes) very instructive about who the really negative teams are.

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448354#Comment_122448354

I'm not missing the point at all, you've just decided to add a massive caveat to your previous statement: "if the winners had scored it".

For example in 2014, if Donegal had scored 1-11, it would not have been enough win the All Ireland final.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448373#Comment_122448373

I couldn't comment on football in 1980 but I thought last Sunday's match was quite enjoyable. High scoring games can often have soft uncontested scores where the ball ends up with a player in space after a slow build up where he can't miss. Last Sunday was very well contested with the outcome in doubt until the end. Can't ask for much more. (Maybe the 1980 final was similar?)

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448459#Comment_122448459

Ah yeah, fine. That's grand. People can interpret it as they wish.

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448313#Comment_122448313

Kerry play a very dour and negative game and are without a shadow of a doubt a defensive team , have a look at the 2014 All Ireland final , this years games against Derry and Armagh last years All Ireland final v Dublin and countless other matches which they could have won, if they didnt play a defensive boring dour style of football instead of playing to there strengths with there talented forwards amazingly you fail to comment on this ,and as usual in your bitterness and jealousy can only see DUBLIN !!

gaffer91

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448378#Comment_122448378

Not at all, this is clearly nonsense. You occasionally find someone like Joe Brolly making this claim, but it's not true. Dublin are the ones who introduced and perfected this dour, negative style over the last few years in terms of 15 men behind the ball, only taking easy shots, no high fielding, endless handpassing and recycling. So definitely not the saviours of Gaelic Football. They unlocked this huge negativity only in the sense that they brought it into the game. Other teams have copied them since, and there was nothing illegal about these tactics and Dublin are entitled to use whatever strategy they think is best for them. But we can all agree it's made the game worse as a spectacle.

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448556#Comment_122448556

This is 100% pure nonsense, another ridiculous attempt to drag yet another thread into an anti Dublin rant .

14 years of this Jesus Wept .

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448556#Comment_122448556

You should probably rewatch the 2011 All Ireland semi final when Donegal came to Croke Park.

tritium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448313#Comment_122448313

lack of high fielding isn’t negative play any more than lumping the ball down the pitch for the big lad is positive play
handpassing and retaining possession with purpose isn’t negative play anymore than carelessly giving the ball away is positive play

Using varied kickours, good collective movement and considered shot selection in addition to areas like high fielding that Dublin used when appropriate, requires more, not less individual skill

every teams objective is to win, that’s the point of sport. Given the scores they racked up Dublin were pretty good at doing that in an attacking fashion. That a player like Fenton went so many seasons without losing an AI game gives a measure of just how good they were

Dano650

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448604#Comment_122448604

You need to take off your blue tinted glasses if you don't think Dublin resort to playing 15 men behind the ball when not in possession. It has been more evident since Farrell took over

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122448467#Comment_122448467

I was actually at the 1980 final, first game I ever went to. Dont remember anything except the Roscommon goal. Roscommon scored early and then the inevitable Kerry comeback and comfortable win.

But for absolute sure, Sundays game was far far better than most of the finals in the 1980s or 1990s.