Double Track - North Dublin

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122047384#Comment_122047384

Between Malahide and Drogheda (excluding Malahide) there are c. 120k people. It's not about 40k in Drogheda town. In any case, even if a Dart leaves Drogheda every 5 minutes, the trains won't (and shouldn't) be full - it will fill up all the way into town.

The most bang for buck will come from upgrading existing infrastructure, such as electrifying the entire national network. Drogheda, being between the islands 2 largest cities and along the most densely populated corridor of Ireland, is the clear logical section to upgrade to electrified.

I agree, core capacity in central Dublin needs to be improved. Thankfully we'll have Metro, Dart Loop Line, Dart to Spencer Dock, as well as 2 Luas Lines, and the removal of through traffic this year, which will be a game changer for getting through the city.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122047495#Comment_122047495

That doesn't make any sense at all. You want to reverse the policies that make sense everywhere else in the world for Ireland. A truly bizarre Irish solution.

There is a better argument for replacing inter-city rail with electric buses once the battery capacity issue is solved. A much cheaper solution for a much smaller problem. That would free up funding for much more rail in cities, not only Dublin, but certainly Limerick and Cork (and I don't mean funding of rural rail through a floodplain).

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050158#Comment_122050158

There is nothing peculiarly Irish about this. If I go to Germany I can get a train to the HBF in the centre of town, and I can get a tram or S-Bahn from there.

I am advocating 4 tracks on the Northern line, which should have been done years ago.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050158#Comment_122050158

actually, there is no argument for this what soever.
for a start there is not going to be the shift to those buses from the rail passengers which are at decent levels and are growing because buses already exist and if they want them they will use them already instead, yet inter city and regional rail is growing.
secondly, road traffic in this country is out of control on the main corridors which the inter city and main regional lines run, and to get rid of the rail services is going to require large scale expansion of the trunk road network which is going to be multiples of the cost of fixing the issues on the rail.
it is also not going to free up funding for suburban rail because there is already plenty of money available for rail and the money that would have been spent on long distance rail will now have to be spent on more road expansion hence it will be cut from rail.
your time was in the 1960s and yet we didn't go that far because it would have been a failure.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050524#Comment_122050524

New bus lanes with enforcement will make the buses viable, no need to expand any existing roads, just reduce space for cars.

All rail investment should be in high-capacity urban rail.

Inter-city will never properly pass a CBA in Ireland.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050198#Comment_122050198

It isn't worth it, money can be better spent. A second Metrolink would be better money spent.

KrisW1001

A third track would give most of the benefit of four, given how infrequent the longer distance services are in relation to DART.

I would be concerned that the land take needed for four tracks in some parts of the city would make such a project financially impossible.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050580#Comment_122050580

bus lanes and removing space for cars won't be enough as there still won't be the complete shift from rail, instead the shift will be in the vast majority to the car.
all rail investment being on urban high capacity rail means greater expense elsewhere in the form of more expansive road infrastructure which is not going to fly anymore, especially given the climate emergency.
inter city and regional rail has already passed a CBA in ireland, is doing very well and is growing and will be a big part of our public transport services.
as i said, the time for your arguments were in the 1960s, they were put forward then and were discounted.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050632#Comment_122050632

Four is possible on half the route and if the other half is three then you get most of the benefits. What is not acceptable is doing nothing.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122047495#Comment_122047495

So the bus is good enough for people living Dublin but clearly not for people living outside Dublin who need to be provided with modern rail based options even if only a tiny fraction of them actually want or need it?

A few km? The average person living in Dublin spends an hour commuting, twice the European average and the fourth worst city in Europe and 15 minutes higher than the rest of the country as a whole despite much higher commuting distances travelled outside of Dublin. This translates into a week of human life wasted per year per Dublin commuter.

Fixing public transport in Dublin benefits the whole country. Having lived for a few years in the country with the highest rail usage in the world has taught me that having decent public transport within cities is the key to making intercity rail (and other longer distance public transport) viable. Having extensive metro and heavy rail options from the likes of Connolly to get you around Dublin quickly and comfortably would have a much bigger impact on making the Enterprise service attractive than shaving 20 minutes off the journey but then expecting arrivals to use taxis, slow buses or walk long distances in often poor weather to actually get to their destination within the city.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051075#Comment_122051075

People on a long haul journeys are longer on a bus than those going a few Km. Many are subject to rattly buses because the government has closed their rail lines, but those remaining should have the opportunity to travel on their train at a 21st century speed.

The country should not be run for the benefit of Dublin alone.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051174#Comment_122051174

It would be a complete waste of money.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051174#Comment_122051174

First of all, as a user of both intercity coaches and trains, it is the trains that are much noisier and bouncier! The intercity coaches on the motorways are far smoother, quieter and more comfortable IME.

Second, typically folks only use intercity rail once a month or perhaps once a week, while folks who use buses in the city are usually on them twice a day or more 5 days a week or more.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051731#Comment_122051731

Tbf folk aren't on intercity coaches twice a day, 5 days a week. You can't begin the discussion talking about intercity coaches and then pivot to Dublin Bus, they are a different product and serve fundamentally very different objectives.

Ronald Binge Redux

What next on this thread, self-driving trucks? 🤪

cgcsb

Wow, a row over a not real issue.

There is no case for downgrading intercity rail to bus and there is no case for prioritising intercity rail over urban commuters.

Both the urban commuter situation and the intercity journey time and frequency issues will be tackled.

The urban issues will be tackled first and with with the greatest amount of investment, Dublin's 4 main projects over the next 10 years alone will be the guts of €15bn, more than all of the cost of the national motorway network. Corks bus connects, commuter rail and luas projects will then represent a further 3 to 5 billion and hundreds of millions on bus connects and rail schemes in the remaining cities. We're talking over 20bn committed to urban transport projects.

In contrast, there isn't a single major project on any intercity line right now and nothing concrete planned bar removal of level crossings and potentially the 4 north project which is also beneficial to DART and longer distance commuters and hasn't been actilually optioneered or costed yet.

So everyone can chill out, multiple transport projects can happen and the urban ones are being prioritised, heavily, currently with a ratio of 20 billion to 0 and potentially 20 billion to 1 billion if 4 north gets finding

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051766#Comment_122051766

Please go and re-read the post I was replying too, I was replying to a poster who is comparing "rattly buses" to "long haul rail" services and was comparing the distance covered by long haul service versus city buses. I was correcting that posters two different poorly made points.

bk

So everyone can chill out, multiple transport projects can happen and the urban ones are being prioritised, heavily, currently with a ratio of 20 billion to 0 and potentially 20 billion to 1 billion if 4 north gets finding

The All Island Rail Review proposes 40 billion worth of intercity rail projects. If it is just 1 billion on quad tracking that is fine. But does that mean we aren't going to electrify the Northern Line so? That we aren't going to do any of the other plans in the AIRR?

Prioritisation does need to be done of all the projects both in the AIRR, between the AIRR and more urban projects, both current and future.

cgcsb

The majority of all island rail review will not happen and there are no current actual projects from it. We're more likely to have a second metro line before even one full intercity route is electrified

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122053344#Comment_122053344

Unfortunately I agree with you.

Though as an aside it looks like hourly service to Belfast is happening and the topic of this thread, some sort of quad tracking of the Northern line is at least being studied. Both of those are part of the AIRR.

That is one thing I feel the AIRR lacked. Some sort of prioritisation of the projects. Which projects had the best CBA's? Which had the best bang for the buck? Any low hanging fruit that could be done quickly and cheaply?

I do see the AIRR as a good outline of a VERY long term plan of how we can transform the rail network, but I find it hard to figure out what are the most important parts and what we need to focus on over say the next 10 to 20 years.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038649#Comment_122038649

Passing loops like that at stations don't work that well in reality. It slows down both services. Intercity/commuter train can't begin to enter the section until the Dart is in the loop. And the Dart can't leave the loop until the Intercity/commuter has left the section.

gjim

It slows down both services.  Intercity/commuter train can't begin to enter the section until the Dart is in the loop. And the Dart can't leave the loop until the Intercity/commuter has left the section.

This doesn't make much sense to me. An Intercity/commuter train certainly can't enter the section with a DART if there is no loop, so even if the intercity/commuter doesn't use the loop, it won't be any slower. And if it can use the loop, it can move forward and gain 5 minutes.

The case for the leaving DART being slowed sounds more plausible but given that DARTs stop for about a minute? That gives an intercity/commuter travelling at a leisurely 60km/hour about 1km clearance to get past.

They're all over Switzerland and seem to work pretty well.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122059626#Comment_122059626

Sure, it won't be any slower, but how much do you want to invest for a still limped service? You are talking about trying to build passing loops to save money, when it would be better to just build an extra track. It's a waste of resources for a small gain. Even though the train can't enter the section until cleared by the dart, it's still on a restrictive aspect, two sections in rear. So reducing it's speed. And you have a dart, which has a 30 second dwell time, increased to 5 minutes or so. So a slow running service for shorter distance commuters as well.

Good luck to thinking that train systems in Switzerland could be applied here. We do a lot of half measure investing in Ireland, and it shows.

riddlinrussell

Isn't the envisaged scenario triple track with additional passing loops? So Dart has a dedicated pair of lines, then one line with passing loops for long distance? Even a worst case scenario 5 minute stop wouldn't be too significant on a 2hour journey.

cgcsb

If it was 3 track from Clongriffin to City Centre and 2 separate off route tracks between Clongriffin and Drogheda via Dublin Airport, i think that would solve all competing issues on the line long into the future. Its only about 8kms from Clongriffin to City Centre, if that section is cleared for 100kmh running it could easily accommodate a more frequent enterprise and Dundalk Commuter with excellent journey times and no interaction with DART. There would be no need for additional passing loops on an 8km section of track for an intercity/long commuter service

The thing is I don't think adding a third track in the constrained section is going to be any cheaper than 4 tracking the route. The bridge rebuilds and CPOs will be about the same.

In any case Irish rail will prepare some options later this year so we'll have to wait and see.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122059935#Comment_122059935

Well that's not what you claimed first which is that the mere presence of passing tracks at stations slows down both services? A completely illogical claim and one completely at odds with what I've experienced at what was my local station in Zurich.

Even if you were to eventually 4-track it - and I'm not at all against the idea, I just think it shouldn't be anywhere near a priority - having a bunch of stations on the alignment which have already been upgraded with passing tracks would simplify the process of fully 4-tracking the route considerably.

You have to add the passing tracks at each station as part of 4-tracking anyway, so why is there so much push back against then idea of adding them in advance of full 4-tracking?

This is how the Kildare route 4-tracking project happened by the way. Stations had 4 platforms/tracks before the extra tracks were added to the alignment.

You get an immediate benefit (5 minute journey time reduction per station) instead of waiting decades for funding for a mega-project, and then years of disruption (I doubt it could be done without completely shutting the entire alignment for significant periods of time) before a single passenger sees any benefit at all.

And it's exactly the sort of solution they go for in Switzerland because they don't have the neuvea riche attitude we have in Ireland when it comes to rail - they're extremely practical and happy to continuously work on relatively modest incremental improvements year after year - carefully appraised in terms of value for cost. The Swiss network has significant sections of single track, stations on curves, level crossings and all sorts of surprisingly inefficient and obsolete pieces of infrastructure so it's not like every alignment/route is modern spec. They also do the occasional mega projects - like interconnectors - but it's not the once-every-10-years new tunnel/station/etc. that makes the system great.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122062949#Comment_122062949

I think you are misunderstanding me. Building loops is a short term solution.
And you can’t compare a system like Switzerland, as it’s not just about having passing loops at stations. We have that here already, and trains are regularly delayed with it.
I was agreeing with your statement that having the loops won’t make things any slower than without, but it is an added cost and disruption for a reduced service compared to an additional track.

Drogheda train in Connolly earlier, held on the platform to allow a Malahide Dart ahead of it. Crawled along behind the Dart. Passing loop available at Clongriffin, but not used. So train ends up being 15 minutes late between Connolly and Malahide sections.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122062949#Comment_122062949

That's great for Switzerland which had been wwealthyand peaceful for a 1000 years. Ireland is new to the game and we've had 100 years of the railway in managed decline with close to 0 funding for year on year incremental funding so we need about 10 mega projects a decade to catch up to mainland Europe which is also improving its railways at pace.

Switzerland has extremely challenging terrain for road and rail so they don't bother with mega projects so much, there are also no cities of Dublin's size in Switzerland.

gjim

I think you are misunderstanding me. Building loops is a short term solution.

Adding extra platforms to stations is NOT a short term solution - it's a completely necessary task if you ever want to 4-track the alignment. It would have be part of the works to 4-track. If you don't want passing tracks in stations then, you can't have 4-tracking. It's a simple as that. We have experience of 4-tracking - the Kildare route project and it involved upgrading the stations first.

That's great for Switzerland which had been wwealthyand peaceful for a 1000 years.

Eh no actually, it was an extremely poor country before the 20th century - and had been invaded and suffered numerous civil wars. Emmigration was a constant feature. The famous line from the Third Man was apocryphal.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122063465#Comment_122063465

It is short term, if you are then talking about four tracking further down the line.
Just do it right the first time.