?????? v Trump (and one or two others) The US Presidential election 2024. Read OP before posting

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122411935#Comment_122411935

It will be for many undecided voters.

This is what humans do, often not always.

You dont have to like it, but its a reality. We form in groups and out groups, and we look after our own.

You wont be seeing a non-Chinese party leader any time soon. Or a non-Japanese ethnicity pm of Japan. Or a non-Indian ethnicity president of India.

And so on.

And yes the Sunaks and Obamas exist, but that doesnt mean humans dont have this discrimination habit. Those are the exceptions. This instinct exists, and it certainly exists in the U.S. and if you deny it, or its potential in elections then youre delusional.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412064#Comment_122412064

The same logic follows that plenty of people would be uncomfortable voting for a convicted fraudster and rapist. Plus if he can't hold his own in a debate against, that won't work in his favour. So a much younger candidate who isn't a rapist or convicted of any crimes etc.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412064#Comment_122412064

I think you overplay both the reaction… and also white male voters are a minority.
They are obviously an important demographic, but they are not the only one.

But what completely undermines your position is that if you think that way, why wouldn't women voters or black voters respond if they think Harris is unfairly jumped over… and the election comes down to another white guy… and they stay at home. That's not good either for the Democrats.

I've put the point to you several times, and you have no credible answer.

extra-ordinary_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412112#Comment_122412112

Donny'll be getting his ass handed to him by a woman no less, and the white male folk won't know where to look…

highpitcheric

I believe Ive already mentioned why it doesnt work the same in both directions, although it should be very obvious.

In voting for a theoretical white guy Dem, the minority or female voter gets rid of their nemisis. The Donald.

I cant believe Im this far in to what should be obvious to anyone. This is like beating back a crowd of flat earthers.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122411923#Comment_122411923

As I said previously, Obama won twice, and Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by over 5m voters even though she was hated by many not for being a woman, but for just being Hillary Clinton.

The majority of those for who racial and gender bias and identity politics is such an issue are largely already Trump supporters. Those issues are half of Trump's policies.

But to suggest the Dems should have tried to convince Harris not to run purely on the basis that she's a) a racial minority and b) a woman would be self-sabotage of the highest order when she's incredibly qualified and would be the presumptive next nominee as the incumbent VP. That would be playing identity politics to try and appease people who are never going to vote for them anyway, while potentially sacrificing the votes of those who have zero issue with Harris being the nominee.

Your point in another post about how China would never vote for a non-Chinese leader, or India for a non-Indian is completely moot because those countries have never been as ethnically diverse as America which is literally comprised of people from European, Latin, African and Asian heritages.

Again, you're basing your entire point on "white guys" despite the fact that they're not the only ones who vote, many or even a majority already likely to vote for Trump, and they all don't think like you do when it comes to race or gender and whether or not that's the main issue to consider when it comes to electing a President.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412166#Comment_122412166

”it’s not her color and gender, it’s her gender and color”

Thank you for your contributions.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412166#Comment_122412166

That's ignoring that there are equally centrists and Republicans that will happily back Harris over Trump. Plenty of people remember what his presidency was like.

https://www.newsweek.com/nikki-haley-voters-pac-announces-support-kamala-harris-1928198

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122411561#Comment_122411561

well yes they laugh because they don’t talk like that, it’s too edumacated for them

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412166#Comment_122412166

You mentioned it, it is not a credible answer. If you have a credible convincing argument with foundation… you wouldn't need to put in guff like "a crowd of flat earthers".

Why is he only the nemesis of minority or female voters?

Do these straight white guys not have wives, daughters, sisters etc

Or care that Trump tried to steal an election and his supports threaten to hang a white guy VP?

If the white guys can be so upset about 'identity' politics that they overlook all that…
Why can't women and minority voters?

Babyreignbow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412319#Comment_122412319

Why can't women and minority voters?

Or women, minority and young voters. And lots of men who aren't white males maybe. Can't think of anyone else 🤔

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412203#Comment_122412203

Dont know why youte blaming me for a political reality which should be obvious to the most uninitiated.

Im a bit busy but I had time for a look around, and it didnt take long to find a worldwide newspaper alluding to the same realities which I mention.

Realities which you either deny exist, or attribute to the messenger.

"It is not merely grizzled men in the Democratic Party who think they ... need a white guy to win. Democratic women, nearly all of whom voted for Hillary Clinton, will say without prompting that they cannot “risk” this election on another woman (as if Republicans would ever say after 2008, “We’d better not nominate any of those white old men again!”). My colleague Dave Weigel has heard it. I’ve heard it. Pollsters I have spoken to have heard it. Democratic operatives, veterans of the Clinton campaign, have heard it — and said it."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/05/03/harris-challenges-best-way-challenge-trump/

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412435#Comment_122412435

Did you read the article? It is from 2019 and actually says…

In short, the notion that Democrats must have a white man to dislodge Trump is based on not much other than fear. Democrats need a competent candidate who can turn out the base, not scare off moderate independents and disenchanted Democrats, and stand up to Trump. 

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412444#Comment_122412444

It proves the existence of the racial dynamics I described.

So we're past the point of this situation not existing, or being a reflection on me personally.

Apology accepted.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412435#Comment_122412435

"In short, the notion that Democrats must have a white man to dislodge Trump is based on not much other than fear. Democrats need a competent candidate who can turn out the base, not scare off moderate independents and disenchanted Democrats, and stand up to Trump. Right now, voters are saying that person is former vice president Joe Biden, who both is extremely well-liked and fits the unproved-but-ingrained hunch that only a white man can beat the white incumbent president.

This week, Sen. Kamala D. Harris (D-Calif.) reminded voters that there is more than one way to slice and dice a dishonest, arrogant white Republican man. She filleted Attorney General William P. Barr, showing she can plan out and carry off a rhetorical knockout. Hey, maybe she can stand up to Trump on that debate stage. Maybe she is the one to rally the African American vote and keep those women who crossed over to vote Democratic in 2018 in the Democrats’ corner in 2020."

That article actually very much viewed Harris as potentially electable. You sure you read it?

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412234#Comment_122412234

Well it wasnt a thesis. Just my thoughts on what looks like a bad move.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412460#Comment_122412460

No it doesn't. That's the second time you've misrepresented its contents.

You cited an article that contradicted the point you made, that there was no real foundation to it.

You tried to pass off an article as supporting your argument - when it showed the opposite.

Then you seem to think you are owed an apology?

That's textbook bad faith argument.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412465#Comment_122412465

Plus as odyssey06 said, the article is from five years ago, and since then Trump has been found liable for sexual assault, and abortion rights have been significantly stripped back throughout the country including in swing states. So the idea that five years ago women voters may have been worried about supporting a female candidate after Hillary, is now completely redundant and if anything has swung completely the other way. Women could be far more likely to vote for a woman candidate than ever before.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412471#Comment_122412471

Of course it proves the racial dynamics I described. Dont deny it.

Stop the silly games. Its too transparent. I know whats up.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412511#Comment_122412511

One paragraph from a five year old article and in which that argument is countered within the conclusion of the same article? Proves absolutely nothing.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412511#Comment_122412511

It's transparent you haven't read the article, or if you have, you are repeatedly misrepresenting it here.

There is nothing in the article proving them as you described.

The whole point of the article is that it is a perception only, without real foundation.

Here's the conclusion of the article YOU linked, which you are transparently ignoring:

In short, the notion that Democrats must have a white man to dislodge Trump is based on not much other than fear. Democrats need a competent candidate who can turn out the base, not scare off moderate independents and disenchanted Democrats, and stand up to Trump. 

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412511#Comment_122412511

The article was overall positive about Harris running for president in 2020… Trump has only turned out to be a far worse since then. So you've effectively gone against your own point with your sources.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412470#Comment_122412470

well at least your mask is finally slipping and you’re admitting these are your racist and sexist thoughts now that the article you tried to Google to proxy your viewpoint through someone else has totally backfired.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412546#Comment_122412546

But my question is:

Are all of the operatives, veterans and various officials of the Democrat party, those who reached the conclusion that a white guy was the best shot. Are they somehow racist and bad?

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412600#Comment_122412600

Biden won the Democratic Primaries in 2020. That's why he was the nominee. Nobody said the primary voters were racist and bad.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412627#Comment_122412627

Ah but I am for reaching the same conclusion today, as multiple Democratic party officials did in 2019.

Apology accepted.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412663#Comment_122412663

You're suggesting Harris shouldn't run solely because she's a black woman. That doesn't mean people in 2020 voted for Biden solely because he was a white man.

Again, you're the one playing more identity politics with this than anyone else.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412679#Comment_122412679

Lol. Some gymnastics here.

The most high of the democrat party can suggest in 2019 that a white male might be their best bet.

Not racist meanies.

I suggest the same 5 years later. .... racist meanie.

👍

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412708#Comment_122412708

Because it's the person, not their race or gender that matters. Biden was a decent candidate in 2020. Old as f*ck even then, but given his experience as a former VP he was a decent candidate especially as an experienced hand to help right the ship after Trump and Covid. However now in 2024, age took a considerable toll on him and he became more likely to lose to Trump. So Harris, given her experience as the current VP is the preferred candidate.

It's not their race or gender that is the defining quality of what makes them the most suitable to be the nominee. Yet that seems to be all that matters to you given your assertion that Harris should be passed over for "a white guy".

That's the difference.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122412727#Comment_122412727

Theres no difference.

Both parties run candidates who are partly selected on the basis of gender and race.

Because right or wrong thats what some people vote for.

Just the way it is.

And you have to factor it in if you want to win.

Like it or not.