Why dont more people use mopeds/scooters?

Tenzor07

The difference is that with a throttle it makes a bike/cargo bike/offroad bike into a moped or electrically propelled vehicle so therefore laws that apply to unassisted vehicles apply to them.

When a bicycle has a motor attached to it for the purposes of propulsion then it ceases to become a mere bicycle.

Could be a chance to campaign with politicians to change this law?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160225#Comment_122160225

Yes, that is exactly what we are saying, the law makes no logical sense and should be changed. There is no safety difference between an ebike that you pedal at 25km/h and the same ebike that goes at 25km/h by pressing a button (or one revolution of the pedals).

All this rule does it limit disabled, elderly, etc. access to ebikes which can be a great way for them to gain a level of independence.

They are currently discussing changing this rule in the UK to allow throttle on all ebikes (optionally). If that passes, I'd expect there to be pressure to also change the EU regulations to allow for it.

Tenzor07

Not sure how comfortable most pedal cyclists would be with a bike that could twist a throttle and zip up to 25kph fairly quickly without a pedal stroke, things are bad enough with the amount of Chinese motor/hub kit 50kph+ bike kits out there, which aren't enforced by the Gards anyways.

bk

Interestingly, just reading the new legislation, there are actually two categorys of e-mopeds:

• The first category has a max speed of 25km/h and can have a power up to 1000W, no throttle, have to pedal.
  This category, requires registration and motor tax, but not a driver license or insurance. They can be used in cycle lanes.
• Second category has a max speed of 45km/h and can have a power of up to 4000W and allows for throttle use.
  This category requires registration, motor tax, drivers license and insurance and can't be used in cycle lanes.

I can see the first category above being popular with e-cargo bikes as the extra power is handy for them, while not needing insurance etc. makes it not to difficult to get.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/4ea3a-new-regulations-for-e-scooters-and-e-bikes-come-into-force-next-monday/

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160704#Comment_122160704

There's are videos on YT on how to delimit them. from what I can see it's a 5 minute job

You need to cut a cable, job done.

The limiters are designed to be taken off.

Completely unregulated and with unenforceable rules

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160704#Comment_122160704

Again, literally no different from an existing ebike. Even the ones with pedals zip up to 25kph fairly quickly. That is more based on the power limit (250W) then the throttle or not. The new legal 1000W ebikes will be more problematic from this point of view.

All you are doing is making life harder for disabled and elderly folks, well done!

Viscount Aggro

I was in Naples recently. There is no way cyclists could survive there.

Two jobs that are redundant there …. makers of indicators… painters of road markings.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160947#Comment_122160947

No, I'm not doing anything. You can attach any worthy cause to a situation and make yourself look like a white knight, however electrically propelled vehicles for people with disabilities may be another thread.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160947#Comment_122160947

Untrained, unlicensed, uninsured people using vehicle's that can go 20 or 25km/h are indeed making life a lot more stressful for pedestrians of all ages and abilities.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161057#Comment_122161057

As a mostly pedestrian myself, I really don't worry about bikes, it is cars that frighten me. So much red light jumping at pedestrian crossings, I see so many drivers on their phone distracted and too much speeding.

They might be licensed and insured, but it doesn't mean they are safe. The majority of road fatalities are caused by such motorists.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161019#Comment_122161019

I'm not white knighting, I'm very serious, the rules don't make logical sense and are just exclusionary. You haven't given a single logical reason why the pedal rule should exist.

That is the bit I'm struggling with, it doesn't make logical sense. There is no difference once they are both using the same power and speed rules.

gossamerfabric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160072#Comment_122160072

Schiebehilfe/Walk Assist is legal on pedelecs in Germany so long as it goes no faster than 6 kmph

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161057#Comment_122161057

Groundless stress again, before e-bikes arrived you were terrified of cyclists knocking you down, now it's e-bikes when all along it's cars that are killing pedestrians.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161408#Comment_122161408

Thanks for the gaslighting.

I'm not terrified of anything. General I don't make a distinction between pedal-only bicycles and other two wheelers: with rapid technology change, the distinctions between types of two wheels are betting blurrier. And they're getting faster, which is a source of stress for many.

But I do have a realistic understanding of the risks I face, and the likely consequences of being injured by an insured-driver vs an uninsured-cyclist.

On Sunday, I had to duck behind the bus shelter to make room for the bicycle-user who continued at the same speed while he undertook a bus that was letting off passengers. I didn't have to do similar to avoid any cars. That's one specific experience, but typical other others I've had, and observed.

There are more accidents involving cars, for sure. But that's because there are a lot more kilometers travelled by cars. The only meaningful comparisons are weighted to control for both numbers of car vs bicycle users, and distances travelled. I've not seen this anywhere.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163601#Comment_122163601

Do you think cars are getting slower and lighter? No, they're getting bigger, faster, heavier and there's lots of uninsured drivers knocking about. You need to get a realistic understanding that you're much more lightly to be killed or injured by a car than by a bike or e-scooter. Now, your anecdote about cyclists cycling up between the path and the bus as passengers alighted is very dubious. We all know how close to the path buses stop. There's barely room for an ant, they're trained well to seal off the access & ensure safe passage on and off the bus. Great story though, one of many by yourself and your numerous close calls with cyclists.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160947#Comment_122160947

Can't imagine anyone who can't manage an pedal assist bike being able to manage a throttle bike.

I think you can make your point without fringe cases. It quite obvious to spot a bike when someone isn't pedalling. I assume that's the reason for it.

That said it's mostly not being enforced, I can't see that changing.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168071#Comment_122168071

Err.. plenty people can struggle to pedal constantly, in particularly up a hill, but could hold a button! In other countries without this law, these are very popular with users with limited mobility.

Also not pedalling doesn't really tell you much, the person might be just free wheeling down a hill or incline or hell I do it myself on a non ebike on the flat.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168590#Comment_122168590

Normal bicycles themselves are popular with people with limited mobility.

"...misperception. A Transport for London (2016) study found that 76 percent of people with disabilities could ride a bike, and approximately 15 percent sometimes used a bike to get around. Another study found that nearly-three-quarters of disabled cyclists (72 percent) used their bikes as mobility-assistive devices (Wheels for Wellbeing, 2018). Older people and those with disabilities often described cycling as easier than walking or propelling a wheelchair and viewed it as a main form of physical activity (Inckle, 2020, Wheels for Wellbeing., 2018). Furthermore, e-bikes enable older adults and people with physical or other health constraints that are not classified as a disability to engage in daily physical activity or bike more often (Johnson and Rose, 2015, Spencer et al., 2019)...."

Freewheeling lol. That literally only goes so far and so fast. Someone maintaining 30kph for any length of time without pedalling is very obvious.

I have no problem with the idea you might get more people out of cars if they could just use a slow eMoped. But are we really trying to get people out of cars. It feels like every mobility initiative is done with massive reluctance.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168711#Comment_122168711

Yes and allowing a throttle would mean even a higher percentage of mobility impaired people to use bikes.

It is also likely that even those mobility impaired people who can use bikes, could travel further on a throttle bike. There is a difference between saying I could pedal for 5 to 10 minutes, versus say an hour. Hell that can even be true for regular folks.

My problem with all this, is no one has given me a good logical explanation as to why it shouldn't be allowed. Obviously within the other constraints of the motor cutting out at 25km/h and max 250W power, I honestly don't see what difference it would make? Exact same ebike, same max speed, same acceleration and power, but one you have to pedal and one you can press a button.

And no one has explained to me why it is okay for escooters to continue to power you, without you needing to constantly use your foot, but it isn't okay for an ebike to do the same?

Ironically I fell this law will simply push people to use escooters instead of better, safer, ebikes.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169056#Comment_122169056

What you need is to find or create stats that prove your assertion that throttle ebike are not any more dangerous.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169266#Comment_122169266

What I need is a logical explanation as to why pressing a button on the otherwise exact same ebike makes a difference?

I also need a logical explanation why it is okay for an escooters to have a throttle, but not an ebike?

Flinty997

I think you'd have take that up with the EU who created the rule.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169432#Comment_122169432

Ah, so you have no answer, got it.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169662#Comment_122169662

It's not my rule but I know why I was created. It's because leaving it as pedal assist makes it legally a bicycle not a moped. So it fits within existing legislation.

If not having a throttle changes people's behaviour "more people might use them" then it implies it possibly will change people's behaviour in other ways. We've certainly seen lots of poor behaviour on eScooters. Paris allowed rental eScooters then banned them.

As such it's possible if all this doesn't work in Ireland they might end up withdrawing the legislation.

Uk is talking about breaking from the EU rules on eBikes. Allowing up to 500w and throttles.

Been a while since I looked at any stats on eBikes and safety, accidents. So if you find any post away.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169824#Comment_122169824

The EU is one of the only places with this stupid focus on a throttle or not, all while being inconsistent with it when it comes to escooters. Most of the rest of the world allows for throttled ebikes and much more powerful ebikes.

As you say even the UK is planning to change this silly EU law and this will likely put pressure on the EU to follow suit.

Cienciano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122139593#Comment_122139593

This is the reason. Not weather or any of that shít. Price on the road is far more expensive in Ireland. Quick check at an online quote, a 50cc vespa, 15 years old is around €1500. Insurance for that as a 20 year old is €1000. Tax another €50. No one is paying that. Italy, France, Spain etc the insurance is well under €100. People get them when they're younger and there's a culture for them.

Cienciano

Helmet stores under the seat, no lugging a helmet around on a moped

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122171555#Comment_122171555

A lot of people in the countries that allow high powered throttle ebikes aren't happy with them. The EU has had moped laws for a lot longer than most places and that is what a bike with a throttle is, plenty of old mopeds has pedals and throttle.

The UK putting pressure on the EU to change a regulation, are you having a laugh.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172926#Comment_122172926

No, I'm serious. I'm not saying the UK can force the EU to do anything. But just the UK even considering it as triggered conversations about the topic across Europe amongst transport advocates, disability groups, etc. Which in turn will put pressure on the EU to at least consider it.

And I've yet to hear anyone give a good logical reason for it.

A lot of people in the countries that allow high powered throttle ebikes aren't happy with them.

Again you are conflating throttle with "high powered throttle ebikes". You could easily make that law to allow throttle, but still limit speed and power to 25km/h and 250W which is very low powered.

Also BTW as of this past Monday, high powered "ebikes" are now legal in Ireland. ebikes up to 1000W just require registration and cheap motor tax, but no driving license or insurance needed. While an even more powerful category, up to 45km/h and 4000W are now also legal, but do require driving license and insurance.

Flinty997

I'd say the physical barrier to riding a scooter at speed is far higher, it's going to filter out most people from doing it.

On an eBike it's much easier to access higher speeds thus people are going to ride beyond their ability much easier. In one study it showed eBikes where more accessible to older riders, but they were getting into accidents more often. So it's double edged sword.

The legislation is playing catch up to the technology. As is safety. I'm sure someone done more recent stats on it.

Throttle even on a slow eBike must have a similar effect of people being able to ride beyond their ability. To a higher degree then if cycling is required.

Theres similar statistics about motorcycles and older riders with little recent experience getting into accidents more often. Obvious enough you'd think.

Flinty997

The cyclists must stay in cycle lanes legislation was revoked. No reason throttles might also be changed. Other than it might not be that popular. Won't know unless you try.

Tenzor07

Throttle bikes have no place on public MTB trails, same as petrol powered motorcycles….

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173458#Comment_122173458

I've a pedal assisted bike and I've passed fit cyclists going up step hills with ease, the strength and flexibility to use a pedal assisted bike is tiny. If someone doesn't have the strength or ability to use a pedal assisted bike how are they be safe to stop a throttle bike?

On a scooter you have to stand up so you can stop safely. For a throttle ebike you have to pass IBT so have proven that you are able to stop safely.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163878#Comment_122163878

More gaslighting John_Rambo, it really is unbecoming.

Here's a pic of the exact bus stop where it happened. Notice that the cycle lane runs beside the footpath, no grade separation. Plenty of room for several armies of ants. Pedestrians get to step off the bus, into the bike lane, and then step into the pedestrian section. Luckly I stepped into the lee of the bus shelter, to make room for the people who stepped off behind me.

The bus-driver assumed that the two-wheeler user would slow down - because the two-wheeler was a long way down the lane when the bus pulled in. The driver was wrong: the biker sped up, presumably for the craic.

Faster bicycles, driven by people who lack the knowledge, skill and attitudes to control them are making things noticeably worse for pedestrians.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2843443,-9.0466744,3a,75y,300.78h,80.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-BcvNA8XT5dkGDRZT5TC-w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174282#Comment_122174282

Hardly relevant to the discussion, to be fair. That's probably as much about erosion as anything else.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176267#Comment_122176267

I hear you. Yet another close call with a "two wheeler" anecdote, this time done "for the craic". They must be targeting you at this stage with the amount of near death experiences.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176461#Comment_122176461

No, it's not about erosion.

It's about the speed and possibly weight differential between the bicycle and the throttle/motorcycle. When someones cycling up a climb at let's say 10kph and the throttle bike can do more than double that it may lead to incidents, especially if the groups are on these motorcycles, plus they weigh 50kg so 4xtimes the weight of the standard bicycle, plus they are silent in their approach too.

Do we really want these whizzing along very limited and narrow cycle lanes on the road also, that's the point here.

magicbastarder

again, it's a completely different context. and not a public road either, so the legal aspect about the definitions are not relevant either.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176461#Comment_122176461

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177489#Comment_122177489

I've been told a few times that it's mostly because of erosion. All Bi-pedaled machines steer from the rear. The act of steering, while also propelling the bike and rider up an incline causes large amounts of erosion very quickly.

E-Bikes are less "visible"/annoying as they don't have a loud 2-stroke engine that you can hear from miles away.

You are correct though that for walkers and MTB's, throttled bikes are a menace, and can be quite intimidating.

mikemac2

A scooter was a super solution for me when I lived in Dublin. I'm with you OP, more people should consider.

The main issue though is thievery. Multiple attempts were made on my scooters. These were never successful as I had quite expensive chains and locks. So in frustration each time they would rip off panels and put a screwdriver through my dash 😫

For zipping around to work, college, shops, cinema they are just amazing but understand these are magnets for thieves. Professional thieves are not interested in a scooter, it's teenagers who do it tbh

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122238328#Comment_122238328

Yea true, anything on two wheels is at high risk of theft due to the "Free Dublin bike" scheme…

CorneliusBrown

double post

CorneliusBrown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122238328#Comment_122238328

hi, I’m about to get a scooter shortly as it happens. Could you give me some advice on what you used to secure your bike please

thomasj

Just seen this notice in the local park , park is large sized.

IMG20240622215750.jpg

magicbastarder

that's the first time i think i've seen an icon for an e-bike.

pedants will no doubt claim that that sign bans the use of bikes with rear hub motors.

thomasj

Yeah I was thinking that too ,. Hopefully people will recognise the little charge symbol on the wheel to distinguish it as an electric vehicle

Strumms

there is very little enforcement regarding poor driving…. As of May last year there were a total of 191 Garda roads policing cars and 124 motorcycles.

An average of 7 cars per county.

An average of just under 5 bikes per county.

It doesn’t sound like there are enough resources.

Joe 90

Being older than most here, I can remember being amazed by the number of moped type vehicles and bikes with an engine that drove through the front tyre when visiting Dublin in the 1950s.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122292924#Comment_122292924

They can just stand at the side of any road in Dublin and they'll catch people using illegal vehicles, resources don't matter if they don't bother enforcing any laws.

magicbastarder

the problem for them now is that it's much harder to enforce the law. it used to be the case that if someone was using an e-scooter, it was clear they were not allowed. now they are, within certain parameters which it's very difficult to test.