Russia-Ukraine War

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232303#Comment_122232303

Even back then, without the mass media as we know it, they knew very well the value of Propaganda, and Goebbels was so good at it that to this day, Putin follows it, word for word. Yes, I remember hearing about the orchestra in Terezin.They made propaganda "events" showing Jews enjoying themselves, dancing after work, and on weekends. Then they issued pictures and envelopes to the inmates ordering them to send them to their relatives wherever they were, telling them to come and join them. They caught many with this trick. There's a particularly good article by a man named Mark Ludwig on what went on in Terezin, if you want to google it? The inmates produced masterpieces of music, under the very noses of the Nazis. But unfortunately, Hitler also killed a generation of world class composers and musicians.

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232318#Comment_122232318

I had to get down on one knee to fill in the ballot paper in comfort. It was like a bride's train or a snake.

8mv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232426#Comment_122232426

TBH, there were so many facists, conspiracy nuts, putinbots, climate change deniers, 'concerned citizens' and terrorist cheerleaders on the ballot that I could only vote to #9…I really couldn't bring myself to give any of these knuckle draggers a preference, even the obvious no-hopers.

junkyarddog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232264#Comment_122232264

I did exactly the same!

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122229218#Comment_122229218

Well as the old saying goes, " By their actions ye shall know them!!!" And for sure, even if Putin "win's" in Ukraine (take the definition of win as you will) Putin has dealt Russia a possible fatal blow…and the financial splurge that he is now engaged upon with his war-economy is a last gasp strategy,, war economies spend cash, they do not produce it, and when the piggy bank is empty, that's it, End of Putin's story.

Say my name

Four years in jail for reading anti war poems.

Well I presume they were anti war as the court called it an anti mobilisation event, he was reading poems at. So to put words in rhyme about no war gets you four years in a Russian prison.

Imagine our President Michael D Higgins in Moscow's Triumphal Square waxing lyrical about making ploughshares out of mortars and then the FSB cart him off to prison.

http://twitter.com/sotanews/status/1799052776485576878

Looks like the man above may have shopped in others for a deal and they still put him in prison.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232652#Comment_122232652

Imho Russia can't win even if it does. Way back in the thread in response to someone on the Russian side as it were who listed US failures in war, I pointed out they actually won most of the wars they got involved in and pretty quickly. They lost the occupations and that's where they suffered vast majority of their own casualties, never mind local casualties. Russia hasn't passed that first stage yet.

But even if they took everything east of the Dnieper and forced Ukraine into a non NATO/EU alignment pact in the morning, they're screwed. And they're still screwed even if Ukrainian resistance magically never came to pass and the occupation was "peaceful". They would inherit a failed statelet with hundreds of square miles of destroyed empty towns and villages and infrastructure littered with the dead and mines. The de-mining costs alone would be astronomical and lengthy never mind rebuilding all that's been laid waste. Even Potemkin towns made of papier mache, paint and prayer cost money and labour. Money and labour they simply don't have enough of. And they'd have to try to do it under sanctions(that would likely get worse if they "won") and a wartime economy without a war. It's been said that the costs of the Soviet-Afghan war and Chernobyl were two of the biggest factors that led to the fall of the Soviet system, well imho this SMO is in the same league, win or lose.

zerosquared

Kharkiv offensive now officially an epic failure

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4710848-white-house-russia-advance-ukraine-kharkiv-region-stalled/

TheValeyard

we have been in 1938 since Feb '22

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/08/putin-war-ukraine-forgotten-lessons-of-history-europe

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233611#Comment_122233611

Ha, I came here to post that very article.

I think it’s a fair view of where we are right now- I think Europe is burying its head in the sand on this- funding Ukraine and supporting it until Russia leaves is really the only game in town - doesn’t matter how difficult this becomes, the alternative is frightening to be honest -

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122232264#Comment_122232264

Very slightly off topic for just a minute, god I delighted in exercising my democratic right last night and relished in placing a number against each of the 20+ candidates.

I don’t care if people placed SF or Ming #1 or #23- the fact that we have the freedom to exercise that right is just so precious - and this thread and this war is a great reminder of that - unless people were out of the country, too sick or had work commitments that prevented them voting, really everyone who could have voted should have - we should never take this right to vote for granted - I believe taking the time to vote reinforces our belief system and makes us more aware of the threats around us, such as Russia, China etc

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233776#Comment_122233776

I stopped after 6. I was surprised at the sheer lack of decent choices and how many utter gobshites were on the ballot paper.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233847#Comment_122233847

I was going to do that but really for me, it was a lovely way of just wallowing in democracy for a few minutes - and yes, I did relish placing #23 or whatever against my least favourite (of which there were many😀 ) candidate

TheValeyard

Looks like this will happen

https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1799331033739071841

Hande hoche!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233948#Comment_122233948

Imagine they will have to supply a very decent amount of anti air equipment alongside any deployment. The Russians will absolutely make them a priority target.

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233966#Comment_122233966

Russia will not strike them or they'd expect a punishing response.

CelticRambler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233847#Comment_122233847

The relevant point is that if you don't think there's enough decent choice, you too can put yourself forward as yet another utter gobshite and no-one's going to throw you out of a window regardless of what you say about Micheál, Leo, Simon, Ursula or even Vlad.

macraignil

Report on the general state of the war in Ukraine from Bloomberg reproduced here:

https://archive.md/HmW4o

Interesting points include that even with a massive advantage in firepower with the delay in weapons from the USA due to the Republican party playing politics, the advances of putin's troops in that time have been marginal and are now mostly contained since better weapons supplies to Ukraine have been resumed. Also they quote an analyst as pointing out one reason putin's forces have little hope of making more territorial gains:

“Russia might have the largest number of soldiers, but a lot of their
first rate armored vehicles have been destroyed” and it’ll take years to
rebuild the army to its 2022 level..

zerosquared

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234017#Comment_122234017

Yep (last paragraph there) I’ve been banging on that drum for a while

You can see day after day on videos and daily verified lists, first ever older equipment like older tanks and IFVs and now mostly golf carts and motorcycles

Yes Russians still have superior quantities of artillery but that’s not hard when Ukrainians almost got to zero there.

I suspect however that Ukrainians have settled in for the long term now as despite what was claimed earlier in this thread time is not on Russian side

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234017#Comment_122234017

I've said it before that Russia have shown little to no ability for rapid advancement since the front settled by Summer of 2022. Any gains they've made since then have been slow and grinding and essentially involve pummelling provincial towns until they're smouldering moonscapes with the odd shard of a building still standing. The only way they could achieve the objectives as set out in the initial 2022 invasion would be to attrit the Ukrainian army to a complete collapse, but even if that were to occur, I have to think that every Ukrainian civilian left alive would continue to fight the Russian forces.

macraignil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234050#Comment_122234050

"Yes Russians still have superior quantities of artillery but that’s not hard when Ukrainians almost got to zero there."

What source do you have for this? The levels of artillery losses in putin's forces have been massive over the course of their invasion of Ukraine and were particularly high on some of the days in recent weeks when they had ramped up offensive actions. I guess by giving away the position of more artillery systems when making more intense attacks they allow the Ukrainians more opportunities to knock them out and while putin may still claim to have huge production capacity for ammunition is there evidence that production of the large caliber artillery pieces required to fire the ammunition is keeping up with the massive losses?

zerosquared

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234235#Comment_122234235

That’s an interesting point, how much is actual shortages and how much is Ukrainians growing smart and realising that only way they get continued support is by painting a dire picture and never ever again overhyping anything

Tho we do still see Russians demolishing whole cities, towns, villages with dumb artillery, so I guess there is that indication

Oscar_Madison

Europe and USA (fat chance) need to learn that it’s not enough to just “prop up the war”- whatever support is needed to push Russia back into its own territory or as close to it as possible is the only way we can move to some sort of truce or peace agreement.

Hopefully France now is planning such support - prolonged war of just throwing equal amounts of ammunition at each other is just not cutting it - Ukraine also have a very tired army and those not yet recruited into it by whatever means, seem to appear very reluctant to do so-

TheValeyard

Interesting read

https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1799496523631239455

TheValeyard

Today's summary

https://twitter.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1799518202533208075

Say my name

The Taliban minister for education is visiting Kazan, Tatarstan, Russia to figure out how to attract (hostages) foreign students to Afghanistan to kickstart their own domestic war drone manufacturing facilities and industry.

http://twitter.com/SReports2/status/1799477530530845060

To celebrate the visit Hitler/Putin has organised his propaganda team by bringing out a video clip of workers, hostages, international students dancing to the tune of Someone like Navalny. sorry Someone like Putin.

http://twitter.com/MaimunkaNews/status/1799463080319242598

keeponhurling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122236083#Comment_122236083

I’ll always thought Putin was a bad guy and war criminal, but after seeing that video now I’m not so sure 🤔

Say my name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122236356#Comment_122236356

Stalin had a great video out too.

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122236356#Comment_122236356

I never realised how cool he was until now. Cooler than a Polar bear eating a Mr freeze.

zerosquared

https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1799702329496863174

600km away

Comer1

I want someone like Putin too, he could be my designated driver

Economics101

Putin gets more like Stalin every day

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8001gvp4dpo

zerosquared

https://www.thetimes.com/world/ireland-world/article/russian-hackers-attacked-official-irish-websites-before-elections-dj3jcq02g

Now why would Russians be interested in a totally unprotected country on back arse of Europe

jmreire

Precisely because they can and will. Creating mayhem and confusion, disruption is their stock in trade. Expect much more, because its what Putin promised to all countries who are not actively supporting him. Deniable warfare.

Discodog

An Army marches on it stomach :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc1DPTZ_cWk&ab_channel=DailyMail

Say my name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122236590#Comment_122236590

People are dying to flatter the ego of Putin.

Sums up the war and the fragility of his ego and his unsuitability to be in charge of a chipshop let alone a country.

Discodog

Russia jailing it's own scientists.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8001gvp4dpo

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234059#Comment_122234059

If the Ukrainian army collapsed I suspect millions of citizens would just flee the country, including many men of fighting age (many already have). There are millions who, no matter their hatred for Russia, don't want to die or be imprisoned and tortured for resisting, they would rather go with their families and start over in Europe. An arrangement that Putin would also love, as it would be less trouble for him and further destabilisation of Europe via yet more refugees.

If only for this selfish reason, Europe must ensure it gives Ukraine what it needs to defend itself

z80CPU

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122236971#Comment_122236971

Not the first time. In 1941 Stalin jailed aviation engineers. Stalin then learned about the technological advances the Nazis were making in the area of jet and rocket fighters.

So Stalin released his own imprisoned aeronautical engineer to go to work on Russia own rocket fighter project. Not operational before the end of the war.

Google it

TheValeyard

He has gotta point

https://twitter.com/UkrReview/status/1799741359307522275

aidanodr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122237100#Comment_122237100

However, I think Ukrainians are a very entrepreneurial, resourceful people and very skilled ( naturally? ) in tech etc. They have shown this during this war. I imagine many countries inc Ireland would not have issues taking them on board in the workplace?

zerosquared

telegraph had a series of articles in last week as to what Putin’s victory would look like, it’s bad very bad

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/what-if-putin-wins-in-the-news/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/02/with-ukraines-resources-putin-would-be-invincible/

beside all the natural resources and people Ukraine actually has a larger and growing innovative industry due to this war, especially in drone warfare

A russia that won in Ukraine carried out its genocide and then proceeds onto the next European countries five to ten years down road with waves of drones and not vatniks is extremely dystopian

macraignil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122237314#Comment_122237314

This I think is something a lot of the anti migrant commentators are forgetting. Ukraine and the Ukrainian people themselves would be a huge benefit to Europe and the EU if they stay in their own country and also if they choose to move to play a role in the economies of other EU countries many of whom have demographic issues with their existing populations becoming on average older leaving lots of opportunities for younger workers to play a role in a productive economy. The strength the people of Ukraine have shown in the face of persistent terrorist attacks should give them the deserved respect of everyone in the EU and further afield.

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122237314#Comment_122237314

Sure, but there are also many hundreds of thousands living on benefits and unable to get jobs in Europe because they don't speak the language or their qualifications aren't recognised (not their fault) and that's a process that takes years, not months to correct. The Ukrainians currently take much more out of the economy than they put in, mass migration is a very different thing than cherry picking the best talent.

Let me add: I am absolutely in favour of hosting all refugees who genuinely need a safe place while the war is ongoing, I don't mean the above as anti migration statement. Just that integrating a peaceful, prosperous Ukraine would be much easier and better than absorbing millions fleeing a Ukraine in ruins. I hope that day will come

zerosquared

Meh kick out a Russian out of Europe for every migrant Putin drives into Europe and stop issuing visas and seize any asset remotely connected to Russia

The moment the oligarchs are prevented from sending their wives and kids into Europe and they are left at home to nag their husband is the moment minds are concentrated on taking Putin out

gossamerfabric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221840#Comment_122221840

That is not fair to the other Coalition member, FPD, who are just as much in favour of actions against Russia. It is just the SPD and most especially Olaf Scholz who puzzingly wish to appease, appease, appease.

TheValeyard

This is gaining traction. Was rumours earlier, but bigger sources not picking up on it

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1799788823209246913

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233611#Comment_122233611

Very sobering article, I naively still believe that Putin will never attack a NATO country, but the line about Poland and Romania not waiting to find out in the event of a Ukrainian defeat has certainly caught my attention.

Throw in a Trump Presidency which would lessen the NATO deterrent in the eyes of Putin and it highlights why the West needs to keep backing Ukraine.

That said it's hard to see Ukraine reclaiming significant territories so I'm not sure how the war ends without some sort of Ukrainian concession. Taking the moral catastrophe of rewarding military might with territorial gain out or not for a second, would current Russian gains since Feb '22 been a major strategic defeat for the west? I'm not sure if would be, Ukraine still has Black Sea access in the current front line scenario and Russia has proved itself incapable of defeating Ukraine without full NATO conventional support.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122237280#Comment_122237280

Indeed he does! And an EU defence force is needed as has been well proven by recent events involving Vladimir Putin. NATO is fine, but yet when someone like Orban can interfere and even block NATO activity, we need an independent military.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122237280#Comment_122237280

If the US wants to isolate itself, that's fine, but they can pack up all their military bases and infrastructure on the continent while they're at it.