Russia-Ukraine War

TheValeyard

Cryptic

https://twitter.com/secretsqrl123/status/1805009007423197403

firemansam4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122295584#Comment_122295584

What a pathetic post. You have absolutely zero proof there was any deliberate attack on civilians. If you do then back it up now.

Russia has been bombing the sh**t out of Kharkiv now for a long time killing multiple civilians, where is your outrage at that?

Crimea has military defences in the vicinity of this beach, the most obvious explanation here would be that an intercepted missile maybe caused this.

The blame for every civilian life lost in Ukraine wether accidental or on purpose lies squarely with the Russian invaders who have brought this hell on Ukraine and it's people. It can all stop tomorrow if Putin stops this genocidal rampage.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296497#Comment_122296497

do a search of NATO and Ukraine going back to the 90's and naughties, there is no point "starting the clock in 2014"

i couldnt be arsed reading the article but this doesnt scream neutrality , they would have been better served treating NATO with a barge pole

"Fifteen years ago, on 9 July 1997, the Charter on a Distinctive Partnership between NATO and Ukraine was signed. It identified areas for consultation and cooperation, and established the NATO-Ukraine Commission to take work forward. Since then, dialogue and practical cooperation have become well-established in a wide range of areas"

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_89037.htm

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296440#Comment_122296440

one of us one of us one of us certainly helps

odyssey06

Neutrality is just an excuse for Russia to invade. Countries join NATO because the alternative is Russian domination.

Look at Belarus for what Russia had lined up for Ukraine.

Look at how Russia 'respects' Moldovan 'neutrality' by refusing to respect agreements to remove forces from Transnistria.

We have seen even Finland and Sweden abandon the neutrality they maintained vis a vis USSR all through the Cold War, in recognition of this.

Anyone who thinks 'neutrality' would have preserved Ukrainian independence and sovereignty - or for that matter that of the Baltic States - clearly hasn't been paying attention.

keeponhurling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122295486#Comment_122295486

If it's the Air Forces, might it be F-16s already? Or are Ukrainian planes capable of such an attach inside Russia ?

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296535#Comment_122296535

of course it could have, if the US had the ability to conduct genuine diplomacy and not greedy oneup-mansship, Europe would be a different place. As it is the yanks seem to have played themselves and only strengthened China and Islam in the process plus weakening Europe, in my lifetime I have never seen the US so weak, its only a 50/50 they stay number one or go into a debt spiral

nigeldaniel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122295424#Comment_122295424

Russia is heavily promoting Crimea as a holiday resort for Russians, basically, they are using Russian civilians as human shields.

Polar101

When people say Ukraine should have remained neutral, they actually mean Russia should be allowed to do whatever they want. That's why no smaller European country bordering Russia stayed neutral. It's not aggressive NATO expansion, it's countering Russian aggression.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296520#Comment_122296520

Any reason why you won't comment on if Russia is committing genocide? How exactly does a peace plan work if they're likely to commit genocide if they remain in any region? Now you will run off again and answer nothing.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296601#Comment_122296601

Even within a single post your are position is all over the place… it is just an anti-US rant. The US is weak… also, the US is interfering in Europe. What does this nonsense mean? It appears you don't even know, these appear to be slogans you are merely repeating here sourced elsewhere. If the US was stronger or had less debt, what does that mean? They'd have threatened and attacked Russia? No explanation, you have none, that is obvious. These posts demonstrate you have zero concern for Ukraine, or Ukrainian citizens. You refuse to condemn Russian atrocities and war crimes. This entire war is just an excuse for you to post ill informed rants at the US.

The US did conduct genuine diplomacy. The US through NATO signed the NATO-Russia Founding Act, a formal treaty. The US and NATO have observed this treaty, and under this treaty Ukraine is permitted to join NATO. It is permitted to conduct an independent foreign and security policy.
This is also the formal basis under which admittance of countries such as Poland, Latvia etc to NATO was proceeded with.

Russia started interfering in Ukraine, in breach of the Budapest Agreement, when Ukraine - as it was fully entitled to in respect of all its agreements with Russia - was negotiating a treaty with the EU. The EU, not NATO. Whether neutral or not.

Russia could not tolerate an independent Ukraine out of its domination.

Still waiting on any real credible explanation as to how Ukraine, or for that matter the likes of the Baltic States, could have maintained independence from Russian domination outside NATO.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296609#Comment_122296609

The west has a completely different understanding to Ru re strategy in a lot of areas. Eg If the west was in Russia’s place it would definately not be ‘encouraging/planting’ ’ its citizens in Crimea. For whatever reason the Russian citizens are buying up property in the occupied part of UKr , holidaying in Crimea , moving there to ‘work’ , etc. they are either being sold a ‘PUP, given massive enticements or/and are true believers in the USSR project and are assisting in populating the area with PURE Russians once the UKr have ‘moved out’?

phester28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296601#Comment_122296601

I am not usually active in posting here, but I find this poster the most bigoted consistent anti west anti US and pro Russian views of "Russia is great". You always fail to substantiate your claims / belief. I have watched this country turn everything on its head from the Chechnya war to the Georgian invasion. They have the ability to spin what they are doing on every occasion to say the target country is doing it.

keeponhurling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296748#Comment_122296748

I always think it's interesting that many Russians leave/escape from Russia. I even personally know some Russians who moved here/Europe for a better life.

Whereas you don't see a long queue of European or people from democratic countries trying to immigrate to Russia. Despite Russia being great, the economy doing so well and it being very well led by the Kremlin. Despite beautiful holiday resorts such Sevastopol also being available.

That's where the "Russia is great" argument falls down for me.

phester28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296789#Comment_122296789

A lot have escaped to Georgia and some have come to Ireland. I cant help feel that amongst the genuine people not wanting to be sent to fight for Putins ego there are some FSB agents planted for a long term plan to continue destabilising democracy

Steviemak7

Neutrality is a complete red herring. Russia invaded a neutral Ukraine in 2014.

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-parliament-abandons-neutrality/26758725.html

In 2018 Ukraine set a goal to join NATO

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations#:~:text=Russia%20then%20occupied%20and%20annexed,NATO%20membership%20in%20the%20Constitution.

Rawr

As a bit of an aside to the discussion here in realtion to certain contibutors, I find myself thinking forward a bit to the future.

I try to approach life as an optimist when I can, and I like to believe that eventually the Russians will be defeated militarily and Ukraine will get to some Status Quo Ante Bellim (or as close to normal as they can get with bombed out cities and mined fields). I like to think it is a matter of when, and not if this will happen.

With that (sort-of) optimistic future in mind, I wonder about our cenrtist friends here and their future outlook on life. They remind me an awful lot of the phenomon of "Useful Idiots" that were often allinged to the Soviet Union during the Cold War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

These contibutors are very much like that previous generation of ill-informed supporters. I guess I don't include the obvious Russian assets in this group, but we do have a least some cohort of people in Ireland who for various different reasons are blind to the morally bankrupt position of the Russian Federation or its dictator. I wonder…how would they adapt to a world where their chosen heroes have been fully exposed and broken?

Based on experience I see three possible outcomes:

• They'll change their tune once Russian defeat is on the horizon and act as if they never supported the Kremlin. Being as morally bankrupt as they are, I suspect some of them have very little courage in their convictions and will bend with the wind.
• They'll double-down ala Trump's "Big Lie" and simply pretend that reality doesn't apply. Arguing the defeat is victory and death is just alternative living
• Or they will simply go silent until the next authoriatian band-wagon catches their fancy.

The final option that I don't list is for a Useful Idiot to gain self-awareness of the horrable things they are supporting and then cease out of shame. I don't count it because people who have reached that stage have somehow regained a piece of their humanity. By then, they are no longer Useful Idiots and there is hope for them.

When we look back at this time in history…hopefully from a future at peace with democracy intact…it will be interesting to reflect on these people and on why they existed.

Dubh Geannain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296613#Comment_122296613

They're actually saying Ukraine should have invaded Russia to guarantee peace. The ramblings may be a little incoherent but if you follow the breadcrumbs dispersed among the almost senseless posts you can see it is not actually Russia's fault at all. They were the most peaceful nation for invading first. The blame lies squarely with Ukraine for not invading Russia and to a lesser extent Ukraine's proxy's the EU and the US. I am thankful for Silverharp's contributions or I'd never have figured it out.

It can succinctly be summarised as:

• Invading = Peace loving
• Defending = War mongering

You're all welcome.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296430#Comment_122296430

Ukraine was neutral. Despite that, the dictatorship next door kept meddling in it's politics, poisoning it's politicians, threatening it relentlessly. Culminating in annexing territory, starting a proxy war, then launching a full-scale invasion. Ukraine's neutrality is exactly the reason Putin seized his chance to invade it.

If Ukraine had been fast-tracked into NATO it's unlikely any of this would have happened.

Putin is the head of a very aggressive nation which has been conducting hybrid warfare on Europe for over a decade, despite our best appeasement and sycophantic efforts it has not curbed this aggression. His TV hosts talk of nothing but war, invasion and nuking European cities.

He just moved 80% of troops away from the Finnish-Russian border, you know why? He has no fear of any invasion. Nobody wants to invade nuclear armed Russia. It's a projection to validate his aggressive imperialist ambitions against Europe.

The "but the West must be to blame" tiresome yarn from the Kremlin and it's sympathisers has well and truly exhausted itself, which is why they've run out of ways to divert blame from Putin. We can all criticise Europe's slow or dragged response to this one-sided aggression, but it's Putin's invasion, which he can end at any time of his choosing.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296596#Comment_122296596

Ukraine has adapted their Soviet era planes to launch the French supplied Hammer bombs.

Those bombs use a rocket motor to extend the range (70km) so would be ideal for those sort of strikes.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296993#Comment_122296993

good to see everybody here is reasonable and trying to see the whole field ;-)

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297096#Comment_122297096

You can't answer simple questions. You're not interested in reasonable discussions. You refuse to provide respected evidence/ links to substantiate your claims. You post cryptic replies when you've been backed into a corner on your posts.

Everything points to you simply being a troll at this stage.

What do you think you're achieving? Do you hope to sway new posters/ readers towards the pro-Russian/ anti-West viewpoint? Are you happy to see yourself as a kind of martyr to the cause for continuing to post here with no ambition of actually proving a point any more, just to get shot down every time?

It's bizarre. Your posts don't even resemble coherent English at this point.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297020#Comment_122297020

Switzerland of the East they were known as

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296073#Comment_122296073

I'm not sure that they even have those words in Russia..

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297096#Comment_122297096

You won't even admit genocide is happening. You're basically ignoring a substantial issue that makes peace pretty improbable.. So you're definitely not seeing the whole field, you can't even vaguely describe what peace would resemble...

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297121#Comment_122297121

Switzerland has multiple agreements and treaties with the EU.

When Ukraine tried to sign such agreements with the EU, Russia in violation of the Budapest Agreement, applied economic pressure to Ukraine and threatened a trade blockade.

So, you have given an example which discredits your argument.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297112#Comment_122297112

its just a barrage of group think, nothing to be gained, everything is 1938 and Putin is hitler dont you know.Ill bet that people like David Sacks have a better handle on things and that there is a lot more to this than US=Good , Russia=bad

Time will tell

jmreire

And when there are sufficient Nrs of implanted Russians, they will again hold another referendum, and invite western observers to observe it.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297136#Comment_122297136

Do you think Russia are misunderstood in terms of their invasion, kidnapping of children and outright genocide? The US is not responsible for the invasion in spite of the line you're trying to push. And it's not a time will tell scenario.... Will time also make genocide not so bad?

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296430#Comment_122296430

What do you think that fool's going to do that will help, if he gets in again?

(To answer my own question) I'm guessing you expect or hope he will cut off all the US support (miltary and economic) to Ukraine and tell them they are on their own.

To understate somewhat (!)…I don't think this policy is as clever as you believe it is.

Someone living with his family in the EU wishing this to happen (the election of Trump and a pro-Russia US admin. and the end of US support to Ukraine) looks a bit like a turkey voting for Christmas to me!

jmreire

Not that it would be the first time attacking their own people..they have always done it historically, this is just the most recent event.

randomuser02125

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297136#Comment_122297136

Hahahaha David Sacks. Oh my sides. Your usual incoherence is one thing but this is next level.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296609#Comment_122296609

I think that they were so cocksure of their ownership after they invaded Crimea, they never thought that it would be questioned. And after a year or two Russian civilians become confident enough to buy property and to move there.(now who they paid for these property's is another question) And they did, large nrs of them. Only now, it doesn't seem like such a good idea! Be very interesting to read any Crimean Property's for sale magazine.

jmreire

Russia is indeed a great country, and that's very true. BUT only for an extremely small Nr of people. It was said that if you were unhappy in your own country, go and live in Russia for a while. Then when you come back home, you will be a very happy man !!

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297211#Comment_122297211

in fairness you should look back at this thread when it was obvious that the Summer Offensive of 23 had failed back back in July, the easiest way to get likes was to disagree well into Oct/Nov, predictive of outcomes this thread isnt unless it used as a counterindicator ;-)

randomuser02125

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297370#Comment_122297370

None of that makes your borderline Russian propoganda talking points true

johnnyskeleton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296430#Comment_122296430

Ukraine was neutral and the majority was against joing NATO prior to 2014. Even still, joining NATO wasnt immediately on the cards in Jan, 2022. It was only after the full scale and catastrophically incompetent* invasion that the tide turned and Ukraine was set on the path of seriously considering joining NATO. Prior to that it was just ond option, and an unpopular one.

I dont really know what you mean by Trump shaking the sandbox. It was Trump who supplied weaponry to Ukraine from Jan 2017 to Jan 2021.

Europeans have very clear ideas. Billions in aid have been given and European arms manufacturing has been increased to meet demand in an increasingly difficult world.

So you dont want to engage in debate, but instead make vague assertions that are wrong or at the very least misleading?

*the one exception to this is in killing civilians and destroying civilian infrastructure, which is an area that the Russian armed forces truly excel at.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297370#Comment_122297370

Think it's fair to conclude you're not willing to admit Russia are committing genocide... If you can't even recognize that much, it's fair to say you're not very realistic and likely full on buy into Russian propaganda.

Say my name

Putin targets a supermarket chain warehouse in Odessa with a missile strike.

http://twitter.com/blue_eyedKeti/status/1805182352307425295

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297584#Comment_122297584

its a loaded term Im pro Israel in a way that im nor even "pro Russia" , I just want the war in Ukraine to end, only the Yanks and China are winning this one

SoapMcTavish

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122293844#Comment_122293844

Seriously ? - all pretence is gone now - just blatant pro rus rubbish. Time to give it up and pass the buck to the next in line.

SoapMcTavish

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297370#Comment_122297370

Don't you mean the February offensive of 22 has failed ?

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297846#Comment_122297846

So you're denying genocide is occurring? Cause that's how it reads which is definitely you following a Russia line on it.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297846#Comment_122297846

We all want the war to end, the Ukrainians more than anyone, but we aren't making excuses and trying to shift blame from the invader.

We aren't parroting this fake Clare Daly, Mick Wallace "I just want the war to end" spiel while muttering Putin talking points out the other.

Dohnjoe

Up to 1.4 billion of interest from Russian frozen assets has been approved. Orban of course tried to block it but they were ready for that, it doesn't come from EU taxpayers so looks like Hungary can't stop the payment

Ukraine will likely spend the bulk on ammunition and air defense missiles.

weisses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297846#Comment_122297846

You realize the quickest way for this to happen is that the aggressor (Russia) withdraws from the sovereign nation they invaded right?

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297136#Comment_122297136

Anyone is entitled to push back on what they see as group think, I've done it myself in this thread last year when it was Orcs this RuZZianZ that… but you should at least have something substantive to say. Pulling any old tired conspiracy out of the toilet is no more commendable than going along with group think. Still have no idea what you're trying to achieve.

ToweringPerformance

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297788#Comment_122297788

So true.

This has been a shameful few years for NATO. Sitting back and watching as Russia slowly destroys a great nation.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122298585#Comment_122298585

Utterly baffling anyone could witness that and their first reaction is, must bash NATO.

It's been a shameful few years for Russia.

Do you suggest NATO launches air strikes against Russian targets? How do you see that ending?

SoapMcTavish

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122298585#Comment_122298585

Surely you mean shameful for russia ? Where are you coming from ? Orwell road I guess …