Be a 'grammar nazi' about job contract or possibly say goodbye to the offer entirely??

galwayguy85

I have been offered a job that's a bit of long commute away. When I explained the practicalities of coming onsite on a 'hybrid' arrangement (i.e 2 or 3 days a week) and declined the offer, they counter-offered and said they would be happy for me to come to the office just one day in the week (or allow for some weeks when I can 100% home office). A young family would make anything more a bit unfeasible. They were very friendly, trusting and understanding about this fact.

This was stated in an email and during a friendly Teams call to follow up on the matter - all well and good, they were eager to hire me!

A contract was sent on and the arragement about home office was a little (I agree) ambiguous. Remote working was merely 'possible' (or permitted).

The partner asked me to request that the manager make things a little clearer. He did to a certain degree. The new contract says that I am allow to work from up for a max of 4 days in the week (which if one reads into things very literally could mean that I could be on-site 5 days in the week). That is absolutely never going to happen of course, they know it would completely untenable for my family and I.

I am now being asked to tell him to make another change to the contract so that things state explicitly that I am only asked to be on-site one day in the week (the other 4 days in the home office).

I know she is right to a certain degree, but I feel that asking for another revision (in the less than 7 days) could be seriously pushing my luck! No employer wants somebody on the books who wants to split hairs over something that has already been agreed upon elsewhere.

The job I have right now is a ho-hum affair and I've been anxious to get out for a while now. What's on offer pays much more, has more holiday allowance and tasks that expand on my academic qualifications etc. Turning it down would be lunacy! "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" and all of that.

What to do? Push my luck (and keep her happy) and accept that that offer might very well be withdrawn, or embrace risk and go with the second version of the contract so that I can be seen as someone who is easy to work with? The end of the month is also on the horizon, so if there is more back-and-forth in emails I will probably be late handing in my letter of resignation to my current employer and the whole thing is then off the table entirely!

Most people worry about NOT getting the job they have applied for… here I find myself as that somebody who been made the offer and instead of delighting about that finds themselves in a terrible dilemma where is there no clear way forward.

Rows Grower

No need for two question marks at the end of the post title.

galwayguy85

It's called 'emphasis'. Thanks for the feedback nonetheless.

downtheroad

I know a person who was hired on a fully remote contract during covid. 2 months ago the employer mandated office attendance 3 days per week. That person now goes to the office 3 days each week.

I'm not an expert on contract law by any means. It would be ideal to have it explicitly in writing, but is it enforceable? I've no idea.

galwayguy85

OK, thanks for that. The days of guaranteed 5 day home office might be over. If it routinely jumps to two days or I would be compelled to quit - to neither party’s advantage. I really don’t want to talk myself out of this job offered. Maintaining the status quo is the last thing I want.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151263#Comment_122151263

No need to be a grammar nazi.

galwayguy85

Ja, das stimmt! Total. Du hast recht.

Ted222

You could seek absolute certainty which would offer complete comfort but The terms of the contract and the arrangement you were offered are not contradictory. The arrangement you were offered can still be discharged within the terms of the contract.

You could perhaps sign and return the contract and, in the cover email, make reference to the arrangement you were offered as the basis for your attendance. Their response to your email should tell you how genuine they are about their offer.

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151373#Comment_122151373

I am sure they would manage and find somebody else. I mean you haven't even started working for them yet

galwayguy85

Thanks, I feel a little better.

galwayguy85

Yeah, you’re totally right. Herself is in the crazy world of lots “what ifs”. Too much at risk by pushing for another re-write. I’ll think I’ll stick to my guns here.

We’ll likely be agreeing amongst ourselves in a few months’ time that splitting hairs/semantics would have changed little (or cost me the job offer).

Mrs OBumble

In say 12 months time, if you get a new manager who knows nothing of your undocumented gentleman's agreement and wants to see you F2F 3 days a week, how hard will it be to get an alternative job? That's what I'd be worried about.

Purple Mountain

A grammar issue would be a spelling mistake or you finding flaws with word structure in the document that was purely pedantic.

What your OH is questioning is actually a condition in the contract that is still ambiguous.

galwayguy85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151808#Comment_122151808

Thanks; I'm in a real bind here. OH is going down the rabbit hole of "what ifs?". I am doing much the same by asking myself that if a third version of the contract is requested, I might be pushing my luck a little, and thus the offer goes to somebody else entirely. It all keeps looping back to what's in the contract and how it is being phrased (despite the agreement elsewhere). If I doubt or dispute things with them, it could be a poor reflection of me as a future employee.

Something else (back in the real world) in the contract could also turn out later to be a root of contention (or something not even written down at all). Or something might never happen at all. She doesn't want me to take any kind of risk.

I really hope that I can leave things as they are and that we can agree amongst ourselves in a few months that pestering the boss man for yet another version of the contact would've been a dumb thing to do. I want to trust them and my gut instinct.

combat14

I would take the offer rapidly with a glad heart

you would be taking a huge risk asking for more contract revisions when they havent fully hired you

you could always leave after 12 months from a much higher salary base in the worst case scenario

Augme

There's no way a competent employer will enter into a contract that explicitly states you can wfh 4 days a week. They need to factor in emergencies or other occasions where office attendance would become necessary for additional days.

Clo-Clo

Have you checked from contract law what the company can and can’t include. If they include you are only one day a week in office for 4, then what happens if you need to go in for 1 day? You could claim the company is breaking the contract, in some situations you might have to go in for more than one day

I’m no expert but I know from other roles if you are very specific in a contract then you have no wiggle room

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151263#Comment_122151263

Nope it's question marks and probably why you should not be drafting or modifying contracts!

You prospective employer should be on their best behaviour right now while they are trying to get you on board and if their best behaviour does not include a properly drafted contract covering the terms you have agreed to then that should be a red flag for you.

If they are so interested in you, then the end of month deadline should not be a problem for them, if they have not managed to draft an acceptable contract in time then that is on them and they should be prepared to wait. Again if not, then that should be a second red flag for you.

I'm retired now, but during most of my working life I held various quasi staff positions in various financial institutions on a contract basis, so I have a lot of experience of negotiating this kind of stuff. In my experience, if people are not willing to work with you to get something they supposedly very much want, then it is likely there will be problems down the line and I would walk away because the hassle is not worth it.

Only you can decide what is best for you, but you are starting from a known position, it may not be the best but at least you know what to expect and you are weighing that up against an unknown position where there are already red flags and issue before you have even had your first day.

galwayguy85

Yeah, that has occured to me as well. He can’t put down on paper that there will never be at least one week in my career with them that will have be there two days in the week ( I guess I’d have to just suck it up).

I can say that with reasonable certainty that asking for it to be rephrased in any form I’ll will be effectively ‘asking’ them not to hire me.

One thing is very certain though, I want to get out of the job I am in. Bored rigid, sub-par pay, 0% home office, zero career progression etc etc.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122152376#Comment_122152376

You're reading too much into it for me. What the contract lays out is each party's entitlement, you to four days wfh and the company's entitlement to have you in the office for one.

Any deviation from that would require both party's agreement. The max bit is to allow for the deviation if necessary and by agreement for either party. Otherwise if it specifically said wfh four days you yourself would be tied to that when/if you wanted to work an extra day in the office.

C3PO

I think that you would be pushing your luck!

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151779#Comment_122151779

This is ultimately the concern I'd have about something like this as well.

A lot of companies are starting to enforce more office based work and this type of thing, for anyone hired prior to Covid is essentially, not something that an employee can go against. It's essentially accept it or leave.

It's likely that the company you are looking to work in is heading this direction, hence the need to keep things gray. As such its a matter of taking a chance on it and deciding whether that is something you can do or not.

Unfortunately it is looking like a lot of organisations are heading back towards the office for one reason or another and the amount of companies left that one can go to to remain at home fully, is diminishing.

OP I would also be wary of making a big deal of having a young family as to why the hybrid model is something that you absolutely need. I think myself that if you have a chance to "prove" you can do the job and be trusted, it's much easier to "negotiate" some flexibility however I don't believe having a young family is really something that many companies ACTUALLY care about (despite all the wellness and other nonsense you see out there)

It's a toughie but if there was something in your contract on this, it wouldn't be overly difficult for them to get you back in the office OR get rid of you should their own internal policies change.

Phantasos

Let's break this down very simply.

• You discussed a contract with them verbally and had a gentleman's agreement about a 4/1 home/office hybrid working arrangement.
• When you got your actual contract the hybrid arrangement was downgraded to merely 'possible'.
• When you brought up this with them, they changed the wording to "up to 4 days maximum' home working.

The contract as it stands is not guaranteeing you ANY remote work. At no point have you been given a contract (the actual thing that matters) that is the same as the informal agreement you made with them at the start. The revised contract is actually the exact same as the previous one, fundamentally.

You need to be assertive, you have equal power going into this working contract. If they genuinely support hybrid work, then they should have no problems rectifying the contract. It feels like you're worried that they'll cancel the offer if you demand hybrid working on your contract… but why? Because you feel they secretly don't plan to give you hybrid working? And if that's the case… is this really the job you want?

foxsake

no shame in demanding absolute clarity for your situation

LambshankRedemption

I have recent experience in this exact scenario. Just before Christmas got offered a job on the opposite side of the country. As part of the job offer there was a gentlemans agreement that I would visit the office once a month. Fine with me.

3rd of January, the company got a new CSO who hates the concept of WFH and mandated that all staff must attend the office 3 days a week minimum, unless having written agreement from him. Cue about a dozen resignations on my team alone.

If the same happens in your company you could be in a bit of bother.

Go back to them and ask for specific language written into your contract regarding WFH or they can find someone else.

Dick phelan

Unless it's in the contract a gentleman agreement isn't worth anything. They've basically said you can work from home but also they can decide they need you in the office 5 days a week and you have nothing in the contract to say otherwise. New manager comes in and decides no more WFH, what would you do then. Never a good idea to have something in your contract that is that grey.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190166#Comment_122190166

Same happened to my partner, she worked from home for over 50% of the time. New owner hated WFH. 80%+ of the main brain trust walked in the first month, my partner walked after one conversation with the new owner. If it's not written down you then have the task of proving established working practice and similar and once you start that, your not staying anyway as it would be untenable. Get it written down, it can be easily made suitable for everyone by.one of those catch all phrases, such as "may have to come in more than 1 day a week in exceptional or specific circumstances".

galwayguy85

A big thanks to everyone who contributed in the past weeks.

I was stuck in the difficult position that if I asked for ANOTHER re-write of the contract (effectively the 3rd one, including the original) I would have missed the boat in terms of giving in my two months notice with my current employer, which would have been the end of May (to start August 1st with the new crowd). That's how things work in Germany. I have long forgotten the rules in Ireland.

I have decided to take the new job. The one I have has me bored ridged and does not really allow me the chance to apply what I studied in college (yes, I know that college qualifications alone don't guarantee one a bed of roses in terms of salary/career progression).

I have ample savings to fall back on if things don't pan out. You'll always miss 100% of the shots you never take.

Mod, this thread can be closed. Thanks again guys.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122229465#Comment_122229465

A good choice in my view and best of luck. I think your example has highlighted the fact that there IS a move for employers to insist on more in person attendance in the office- what your recruiting manager might say vs what the HR dept are willing to commit to in a contract may well be at odds.

Short-term you’ll likely be WFH 4:5 days - but in the beginning I’d be flexible around office attendance until you find your feet- a willingness to do this will likely go in your favour- then move to the 4/5 but that’s about open dialogue with your manager throughout -coming into the office for me is not about presentism- it’s about doing things with the team that are hard to do online or virtually - but we’re in a changing world I’m afraid and companies are obviously keeping their options open in contracts - good to see evidence of this just so we know- I don’t think going for phase 3 contract edition would have been wise in fairness- I think you’ve got the message - accommodation will be made for you- but don’t assume it will always be this way and company has right to change their mind