IRFU Funding Model changes

RichieRich_89

It seems a bit knee-jerk that they'd make the changes so soon after there was fuss about Leinster having so many CCs.

If we continue to see the Leinster second string not being as good at winning games as when Lancaster was here players like Deegan will be much less attractive to the other provinces and talk of Leinster being able to hoard talent because they have 10 centrally contracted players off their books will go away.

Ultimately, the IRFU are a very pragmatic organisation. They're not going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Leinster have produced a lot of quality internationals for Ireland, and the national team generates 80% of the revenue. If these changes tip the balance too far then the necessary corrections will be made back the other way.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169700#Comment_122169700

The fuss has been building over a longer time though, I posted last year that Leinster should be worried about the imbalance/financial situation at other provinces and that it will inevitably impact Leinster.

All in all the changes look fine

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169639#Comment_122169639

I don't know if the gate receipts go into a general IRFU pool or stay with the province.

Dubinusa

Lol! Good man urself. So it's Leinster rugby's fault that the planters bestowed the private schools on us fickle pale dwellers!

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169645#Comment_122169645

Yep, and every new signing, contract or retirement will be framed as either being driven by the new rules or that the new rules have had absolutely no effect, and it will impossible to confirm or contradict either take.

Dubinusa

How are Ulster running a deficit? It's bizarre! They are a well supported side.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169685#Comment_122169685

It's a difficult balancing act, particularly when you have the unusual situation of one entity controlling multiple teams in the same competition. It leads to hard questions about integrity.

On the one hand, you can say that the successful teams should reap the rewards of success. But this can lead to the situation we have now where there is a clear divide between the haves and have nots, and breaking into that successful group becomes very difficult. Money makes more money, basically.

On the other hand, you can say that in order for unsuccessful teams to become successful they need improved funding. But this can be seen as rewarding mediocrity.

In the end, it's not like Ulster / Munster / Connacht are going to get a huge chunk of cash thrown at them here at the expense of Leinster, in reality this is just going to tip the scales back slightly from where they are now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169765#Comment_122169765

There are plenty of people on here though who suggest that Leinster deserve virtually no credit for the schools that produce the players, and have practically no involvement in these players until they land into the sub-academy/academy as ready made pros.

I don't see for the people who espouse that theory how they believe that the money Leinster generate so is responsible for helping Leinster to keep churning out international quality players.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169382#Comment_122169382

The assumption is that it is 30m, based on everything we know with the IRFU I can't seem them increasing player wages by 33% at the drop of a hat. Especially when everyone has been told for the last 12 months they have to tighten their budgets

If the provinces with central contracts are now asked to pay more, then those wages will have to come from somewhere. So they will come from other players in the squad, so the likes of Leinster will have to let more players go.

These players will in reality move abroad more than stay in Ireland, some will stay but I can see the majority moving. The dream of players suddenly moving to other provinces will still end up taking slots from players in those provinces and they will have to move abroad.

I don't see the logic here, if a player is good enough to be on a central contract then they are good enough to be on a central contract.

twinytwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169236#Comment_122169236

I would agree with you if all the provinces were equal but they are not. In reality what has happened is that the other provinces are essentially penalised because they will never be able to compete with Leinster on player development.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169765#Comment_122169765

I get what you are saying. I agree with you. But!! The union is culpable here too. The union fecked up the provinces by bringing in Keane, van Grann. Friend etc. The responsibility for for these hires lays in D4. D4 was approving Van Grann for an extension. I understand the frustration for fans and I do see why they'd be pissed off. I think the reality is one colossal fcuk up after fcuk up in relation to coaching/ upper management. Ulster have suffered due to this. The fault lays squarely with the union. Teams suffer with useless coaching. Gate receipts are less and players get frustrated. Imagine playing at Connacht with the insane clown posse as the coaching team!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169815#Comment_122169815

Why is that the case?

Most of the reasons people cite for this (demographics, population, private schools) are absolutely not unique to Leinster and have also been the case for around 100 years or more.

I don't accept it as true; maybe the other provinces can't produce quite the same quantum of international quality players as Leinster purely based on population disparities, but over the past 15 years or so the ratio has far outstripped that level, and it's clear other provinces, especially Munster (from around 2013-19) and Ulster have been under-delivering.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169815#Comment_122169815

Why would they never be able to compete?

Munster for instance have an excellent number of players coming oevr the next few years, Connacht have progressed massively. Ulster have huge potential with a large population

None of the provinces, including Leinster, can claim they have maximised the population in their province, not even close to it. So saying they will never be able to compete is nonsense to me.

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169764#Comment_122169764

Didn't they drop a massive sum when they had to switch their ECC game against La Rochelle to the Aviva last season?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169765#Comment_122169765

yeah at the end of the day none of us will be the wiser as to how the national funding will be divvied up, other than some assumptions put onto paper by the lenihans, jackmans, traceys, o conners, et al.

all id say on the matter is that irish rugby is in a very good place currently and the envy of much of teh rugby world, so id be doing very little to break that status quo, other than looking for methods to improve.

if that method is to throw money at provincial sides, the id question if its the best use of funds. if that money is to expand the game and improve the output of professional players in the less productive areas then hell yes thats something id get on board with fully. improving facilities to encourage provinces to become more financial sustainable (and independent) is also something i can get on board with, and something which is well advanced.

spending money on the top level with everyone chasing the same single goal isnt the best use of funds, but thats sport i guess.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169822#Comment_122169822

Hold on a minute here, the provinces identify the head coach and then the IRFU approve it. The IRFU don't pick the head coach.

Munster asked for an extension for Van grann and nobody had any issue with Van Grann till he said he wanted to go, then all the stories of poor training, unfit players etc came flooding out.

Not sure why you mention Friend who done a great job at Connacht, Keane just didn't work out but neither did MOC

Ulster issues are many, not just the head coach.

Tipp1991

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169871#Comment_122169871

Head coaches are IRFU appointments. When a head coach role is advertised, it's applied to the IRFU directly who subsequently hire and pay for the head coach at each of the provinces

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169925#Comment_122169925

The IRFU fund them, they are on IRFU contracts but the provinces pick them

Has always been the case, like Leo joining Leinster his presentation was to Leinster, not to the IRFU(Maybe they had a representative on the panel). The discussion at the time was then Leinster went to IRFU for approval. Leo whole presentation was about taking players from the academy and using that route

If the province want to keep the head coach it the IRFU who will sign the contract as they fund it but the IRFU never have and never will sign a head coach without the province.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169813#Comment_122169813

youre talking about reduced squad numbers here. in order for more to move abroad there needs to be a surplus of positions for these players to take up in provinces.

i see no indication that what was announced today will result in that. there is no indication that wages are going to increase for anyone. if anything, in order to improve squads, squad numbers might actually increase.

each province has (on average) about 44 senior players and 15 academy spots.

if leinster have to find about 1.5 million for this extra payment to cover CCs, then the reported increase in funding can cover it. Ulster, for example, with 1 CC, have a lot less outlay to cover, therefore have more financial clout to attract players, in order to improve their squad. Maybe even increasing their academy input.

i still see no indication at all here where there would be any increase in the rate at which irish players leave to play abroad. in fact that would fly in the face with what the IRFU CEO said today.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169925#Comment_122169925

do you actually think head coaches are foisted onto provinces without their approval or agreement?

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169951#Comment_122169951

The gatekeeper for all such appointments is the IRFU

Rugbyf565

This is a disgrace and no doubt done to appease mouthy Munster and ulster fans

Mod: Trolling

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169953#Comment_122169953

Leinster hold a big squad because a huge number are away and not available all season. This is helped because some of them are on central contract so they can fund additional squad players

If the funding is no longer in place or they are paying for the central contract players that mean they have to find budget from existing squad players. So the squad reduces.

So lets say Leinster budget is 10m for players outside of central contracts. The budget is still 10m but now they have to pay 30% for the central contract players. Lets say that take 2m from the 10m. they now have a player budget of 8m. That's less players because they can't pay for the same amount of players with 8m they could with 10m

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169986#Comment_122169986

They approve, but they don't pick .

So if the province picks a coach who is not a success the issue with not with the IRFU, the province picked the coach in the first place and recommended him/her to the IRFU

ulsteru20s

The 'up to' made me raise an eyebrow but at the same time 30% seems a tad high. I think i would have done a flat 20 or 25%.

Overall, i think a good thing.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122170004#Comment_122170004

There's zero point in being the gatekeeper if you devolve your responsibility. Rubber stamps in business is risky business

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122170021#Comment_122170021

I responded to a post that said it was the IRFU fault for some head coach hires, it's not. Jumping around for another few posts is not going to change that

In the case of Munster and Van Grann, they had no issue at all with him till he said he was leaving, they asked the IRFU to resign him etc. His hiring came on the recommendation of Munster and Rassie. Do you really think the IRFU was going to go back to Munster and say no?

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122170045#Comment_122170045

You seem to think all appointments are just rubber stamped - if that is the case then that's poor diligence by the IRFU

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122170138#Comment_122170138

How do you split the responsibility for these sort of appointments so? What share of the decision is taken by the province and what share by the IRFU?

Tipp1991

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169980#Comment_122169980

Of course there's agreement but ultimately it's the IRFU's decision. Whats the point in having a performance director if each province was to go off any hire whoever they wanted?