IRFU Funding Model changes

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122171082#Comment_122171082

Deegan resigned means Leinster want him and he wants to stay. I have no idea why he did it, could be for personal reasons, could be for professional but that's his decision.

In terms of Culhane, well the record of Leinster is fairly exceptional at the moment of bringing players into the team and progressing them into international honours. Somehow I doubt a player like Deegan who can be captain and a senior professional is blocking a young player who will gain the knowledge from playing alongside him when the internationals are away.

Leinster fans already know about Culhane, like we knew about Deegan and Doris before them and the list goes on. I have faith in Leo to bring the players into the team/squad at the right time like they have done before.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122171899#Comment_122171899

Yeah, this is my thing. Leinster and Dublin have always had demographic and population advantages over the other provinces. They’ve pretty much always had private schools. There has always been a pretty strong rugby culture in pockets of the province. Blackrock has been winning senior cups and producing Leinster players for over 100 years.

All of these things were the case back in the 1950s and before, but absolutely were throughout the 2000s when Munster were the dominant force of Irish rugby. How come there wasn’t this massive elite player production disparity then?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122171958#Comment_122171958

Munster for an example, players stopped and then players started again. Something not quite right with that.

I was talking to a coach in the club system and he felt Munster crop coming up would be stronger than Leinster, that was his personal opinion, he is from Munster and coaching here.

So why did it stop?

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122171899#Comment_122171899

Its not that other provinces shouldn't be trying to do this, its that we are getting advice from a province that haven't themselves. When leinster source way more of their players from clubs and smaller schools, then people would probably be more open to listening .

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172174#Comment_122172174

That sounds like pure old simple Irish begrudgery to be honest. Leinster do very well with what they have.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172174#Comment_122172174

You are aware the private school only take children at 12/13 type age. Do you think they all just land into a private school never haven't seen a rugby ball before in their life and suddenly the private school trains them to play rugby?

Do you think Leinster rugby are giving advice? and to who?

Someone posted earlier you have no idea about the schools system or how it work, seems like it

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172181#Comment_122172181

Yea of course they do but they have a lot. The advice is to 'find guys from clubs, find guys from a smaller school base, bridge the pre academy development gap'.

All that is absolutely true but leinster don't actually do that themselves, right?

They still source a pretty astonishing amount from just two schools.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172189#Comment_122172189

Ah, so its leinster rugby's sterling work with u13s that helped mainly two schools produce all that talent.

I'm sure you are giving advice. Tons of advice. I'd still give most of the credit to those two schools. Why wouldn't I? Why go beyond the obvious?

If roughly 50% of your players come from two schools, the credit is obviously to those schools. This isn't rocket science.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172191#Comment_122172191

Seriously you drag every thread into the same discussion, which as the poster above said is just begrudgery.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172191#Comment_122172191

Haven't always thought have we.

Other provinces complain they can never do what Leinster do due to private schools.

Now we have more complaining that they can't even do what Leinster DON'T do.

See the pattern here?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172198#Comment_122172198

Maybe a few more edits

Somehow I don't think you understand works in Leinster that you spend so long complaining about, it's quite funny.

So again who is Leinster giving advice to? you made the claim above. Or was that another clanger?

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172199#Comment_122172199

Half this thread has been complaining that other provinces are messing up development. Give advice, be prepared to take it.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172220#Comment_122172220

Oh lol, i thought you meant they were giving advice to the schools.

I meant all the advice originally we are getting in this thread, and thoughts on how we are messing up.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172207#Comment_122172207

No.

Time for a nefarious edit. Of course it isn't surprising that other provinces find it hard to do what leinster also can't do. That's kind of obvious. Is that the pattern?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172263#Comment_122172263

Who said Leinster can't recruit from clubs and smaller schools? (they do, by the way)

It was your claim they DON'T do it.

You're trying to create a strawman here.

So other provinces complain that:

1. They can't do what Leinster do; and

2. The can't do what Leinster don't do.

In my best Sesame Street accent.....

"do you see the pattern here?"

theVersatile

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172098#Comment_122172098

So why did it stop?

As I have highlighted on the previous page to LP, it didn't. There's a big list of players from this "lost generation" who are still playing pro-rugby. The extent to this dearth of development by Munster (besides in certain positions such as centre - which is the same for all provinces - see Leinster at 9) is grossly exaggerated when these conversations come up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122171958#Comment_122171958

All of these things were the case back in the 1950s and before, but absolutely were throughout the 2000s when Munster were the dominant force of Irish rugby. How come there wasn’t this massive elite player production disparity then?


I'd argue a few different reasons. Obviously, you just have your generational ups and downs which have been discussed at length. At the same time, it took some time for Ireland to adjust to the realities of the professionalisation of the sport. There was a marked change in the game around 2010/2011 - a point after which the difference between the type of rugby played before and after is incredibly clear and jarring. Around this time, rugby started becoming more and more of the power and pace based game it is today (which obviously benefits those who get younger/greater access to S&C facilities). Hell, even up as far as seven or eight years ago, a guy like Rory Best, who was physically unimpressive but technically astute, was able to forge a career as an International centurion, test captain, and B&I Lion. There's zero hope of that happening nowadays.

That's a bit of a tangent, but a bit necessary to deal with my upcoming comments. Obviously, the 2009 Heineken Cup final win did huge things for rugby in Leinster, and this had a massive effect on the uptake of the sport in the province. A similar effect can be seen in the past couple of years from Connacht's 2016 Pro12 win. This absolutely resulted in a change in attitude towards the way the schools treated the sport.

There's an OffTheBall article which talks about how St Michael's in particular met up with an aim of maximising their number of future players around this time. They employed "top-end strength and conditioning coaches Fiona Oppermann, the former Irish athlete; Junior Charlie, the New Zealander and ex-Connacht flanker; Andy Burke, the ex-Munster outhalf; and, currently, James Ruxton, a former Irish 400 metre runner" - on top of professional coaches such as Bernard Jackman among others. In 2016, St Michael's invested in an astro-turf all-weather pitch, specialised scrummaging areas, a new sate of the art gym, and a new sports pavilion housing modern changing facilities and showers. After this, their production line exploded - having only produced one pro player prior to 2014 (a believe I read but cannot re-find the article). They actually put their superior resources and demographic advantages to use, and look what it resulted in. A production line of players who are more prepared for the professional game than ever before.

That's just one example, but I can go on about the burst in investment which occurred beginning in the 2010s. Blackrock completed a new state of the art gym in 2018 and a new astro-turf pitch which was funded by their own Capital Fund and government grants. This followed the construction of the Des Places Sports Pavillion in 2012. There are also continuous developments in Blackrock between 2019 and 2024 - all funded using their own Development Fund. Note this is all private development, not Leinster funded.

Ultimately, I think that level of increased investment starting in the 2010s is what really kickstarted this - hence why "there wasn't this massive elite player production disparity" before. I'm sure it isn't the only reason - but its a major factor.

QUICK EDIT: Right, that's two theses written today. Time for bed - see you all tomorrow folks

ulsteru20s

Every province recruits from province recruits from clubs and smaller schools.

No other province have anything on the level of talent production of blackrock and st michaels combined. I don't think any other province has close to same percentage from only two schools but would have to check.

Its pretty hard to copy.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172308#Comment_122172308

The other provinces should offer academy places to the players from these schools who just miss out on the Leinster academy…

More Nick Timoneys.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172332#Comment_122172332

I think the way to bridge the gap is to just try to get a lot more access in terms of facilities and training to that age range, for guys you have IDed, and also to ID wide. That is comparatively higher effort but you are rarely going to get a timoney level guy out of dublin.

Leinster actually do a good job outside private schools by the way lol. Their clubs team is pretty good every year, and always has interesting guys. Its more of a sign of how amazing the production line is at those two schools than anything.

You can't really directly fund schools. I can see issues with that.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172174#Comment_122172174

Why would Leinster do that?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172308#Comment_122172308

Why do they think they have to copy it?

It's been said over and over and over again that what Leinster have isn't replicateable in the other provinces.

Isn't it a good thing that it's the responsibility, or at least should be, of the other provinces to come up with their own ways to improve their player stock

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172584#Comment_122172584

I’m loathe to get into this again but, to be fair, LP has suggested it’s replicable, which is suspect is what is being referenced here.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172631#Comment_122172631

I'll let LP respond for himself, but in the post where he suggested something is "replicable" (thanks, couldn't think of that word) he starts by saying that putting leinsters success down to two schools is too simplistic, which if course it is.

His main point is that the facilities, coaching and culture of st Michaels is easily replicable, which again, of course it is, with money and proper recruitment.

What isn't easily replicable is the demographics, the history, the standing of the game in that area. That's what takes time to develop and nurture and grow. And that's what I'm referring to when I say that what Leinster have isn't replicateable (replicable)

Pointing to two schools and saying to Leinster, you have to do fcuk all to be successful as you're getting ready made pro players straight into your academy is ignorant in the extreme of the work that Leinster put into clubs, schools and academies to get these players to where the end up

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172670#Comment_122172670

Yeah, this is 100% it.

There have always been private schools, strong demographics, big population, etc. It didn't always convert the way it does now.

The notion that it is not replicable is always frustrating. It sounds overly simplistic, but I think it fundamentally is a case of if you can get higher numbers of kids interested in playing rugby, have really proactive, skilled and involved coaches, have good facilities to aid development and have a clear strategic plan for how you're bringing these kids along, then virtually anywhere will see an uptick in the number of better quality players they're producing.

The only really hard part of that to solve is the very first part - getting the kids playing the game, everything else is absolutely doable.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172850#Comment_122172850

Because it isn't really replicable. The schools in leinster have funsing/access to funding that isn't simply there elsewhere even if you have clubs and senior ail clubs etc involved to help. They can do some bits what the leinster schools do but not all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172872#Comment_122172872

The big Munster schools have huge funding behind them too - they still routinely go on tours overseas, have great facilities, great coaching etc.

Obviously rolling out Michaels/Rock set up across every clubs isn't realistic, but things like the regional development centres can help to bridge some of that gap.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172887#Comment_122172887

PPres And Christian's and to smaller level glenstal and Rockwell but beyond that not really and nothing near what the leinster schools do. It's not replicable in any way.

Plenty of Limerick city schools say they can't do what leinster schools do. Just look at some of the social media posts they put up etc

Yes the regional centres will help

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172670#Comment_122172670

His main point is that the facilities, coaching and culture of st Michaels is easily replicable, which again, of course it is, with money and proper recruitment.

But it's only replicable, to the same scale, if the money is replicable, to the same scale.

We obviously don't know the specifics, but I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest the private schools in Munster don't have the private backing to the same extent as, say, Michael's. Fair?

(And fwiw, I've always said Leinster are extremely well run too, in this conversation; and because of that, they've take full advantage of the natural advantages they have. Credit to them for that).

Now, if this change in the IRFU funding model indirectly redresses the CC distribution that would've been in play next season, and helps the other Provinces bridge that funding gap, I think that's a good thing. And it doesn't mean Leinster are "punished", as has also been suggested on here.

But to then go from there to suggest the Provinces will wilfully neglect their academy (and I'm not saying it's an argument you've made, syd)… but that's a massive, massive leap.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172904#Comment_122172904

Even those 4 schools you mentioned have something close to 2,400 students between them, which is around 700 students more than Rock and Michaels combined.

The role of the facilities etc is always overstated IMO as a major factor in the production of players. There are plenty of Leinster schools with great facilities that aren't churning out players as much.

The hardest part to achieve is the culture - making the kids want to play the sport and devote the time to it to keep improving.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172332#Comment_122172332

Talk about f**king the entire system up, the rest of the provinces would just wait around the schools cup and pick up players as they walk out, not try develop the players in the province they have access to.

The provinces have shown they have plenty of their own talent, why not keep on that progress and look at other options? why is the answer always "just take players from Leinster"