Crackdown on learner drivers

Deub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191137#Comment_122191137

Agree with you. Not all people are good drivers even though they have tons of experience. A refresher would be good and better if they could ask people who had their life changed by an accident to come and do a speech.

Deub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191225#Comment_122191225

Your posts are just ridiculous now. Driving is a skill like any other. You get better (aka learning) by doing.

Why do you think car insurance is higher for new drivers and gets lower as you get more driving years?

Do you also suggest they are wrong in their business plan?

Kurooi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191268#Comment_122191268

Several potential reasons come to mind. We are comparing learners vs the average driver. Is it possible that having fresher in mind the theory exam and EDT they are better drivers because they know more? They are younger, is it possible that gives them an edge over at least many drivers who are less fit to drive? Could they be more cautious than an average driver?

That's all guessing though! That's why I use numbers. And I couldn't see a link between L plates and fatalities. I outlined my conclusion very clearly. Provided sources.

You still have not provided anything. Link, stat, go on. I really want someone to argue and improve on the facts I laid out. It's supposed to be an educated discussion, or so I hoped.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189248#Comment_122189248

Far too many experienced drivers in this country are pretty **** and have all the bad habits we don't want for learners so we are goosed either way

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189396#Comment_122189396

This requirement to display plates only when the driver has that status is fundamental and should be introduced immediately. God only knows why this was not done years ago. Then every vehicle with L plates and only one driver should be stopped and either the car seized or the person fined for falsely displaying an L plate. There should be a camera on motorways and every vehicle with an L plate fined. Insurance databases should be interrogated for vehicles with L drivers insured and some checks on those also.

And talking about phones etc is mere distraction, of course these offences must be detected too.

A rules of the road test when renewing licences makes sense too, again why not?

Driving is a serious thing and a culture of taking it seriously has to be established.

Deub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191302#Comment_122191302

Of course it can be an educated discussion. For instance, instead of searching for the number of deaths of L drivers in Ireland, you could have simply search studies about road traffic accidents by age group. You would have found several studies and even a page from the European Commission that would have answered your question.

Witcher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190594#Comment_122190594

Gardai already have this functionality on the devices.

Kurooi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191451#Comment_122191451

That would be incorrect for a number of reasons.

-For one thing, the article in question specifically calls out fatalities, so it would be a fallacy to substitute it with all accidents.

-The article and measure also are Ireland specific, so European Commission studies, unless concerning Ireland, aren't as relevant as information from the RSA and Irish stats I provided. Driving tests and permits are specific to each country.

-Substituting L permit holders for "young people" is again a fallacy, a lie, in fact many people do very well and finish their licenses (as shown by the 233k of 3m, and 50%+ pass rates average) so you're judging and informing policy around L permit drivers by the driving record of predominantly fully licensed drivers.

-The assumption that L drivers are young is far fetched, and especially considering that you'd apply it to then excuse a measure specifically targeting people renewing their permit. Someone renewing their permit a 3rd time is at least 24.

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190999#Comment_122190999

I got them for my kids - first journey they fell off. Can use the ones that cling to the window, but the back window is tinted and you can hardly see them. I'm currently driving around with both N and L plates.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191605#Comment_122191605

This issue is not beyond human ingenuity. a tablet sized panel that you can turn on an off, for instance. In this day and age these could have RFID information. You could even have other letters, A for Arsehole, B for Bollix etc. then if you had a certain number of offences but were not yet suspended you could be obliged to have a A plate.

Deub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191585#Comment_122191585

I stopped reading here:

The article and measure also are Ireland specific, so European Commission studies, unless concerning Ireland, aren't as relevant as information from the RSA and Irish stats I provided. Driving tests and permits are specific to each country

I have better use of my time. You think insurance companies are wrong. You think RSA is wrong. You think EU data is irrelevant even though driving licence from any European countries is valid everywhere in RU.

When everyone is wrong, then ask yourself why. I am out. Good luck with your quest.

Sadb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189396#Comment_122189396

I believe this is the issue here. I’ve lived in my house for 12 years and in all that time, my neighbour has L plates on her car (she lives alone and doesn’t have family). I can only conclude that the reason she has not been questioned by Garda is because they presume the L plate is for someone else in her family, as she is in her 50s/60s.

I’ve had the privilege of driving behind her some mornings and believe me, this woman should not be on the roads.

I agree that the stickers should only be on when the person that needs them is driving.

Kurooi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191659#Comment_122191659

I never said RSA, insurers or EU are wrong. And you still didn't provide one source or fact. Just opinions and assumptions.

Sure, thanks and see you.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058353384/crackdown-on-learner-drivers

The media creates click bait and you've taken it hook line and sinker here.

I'd expect learner drivers to factor less in accidents and deaths due a various factors like being under instruction and observation, limited opportunities to drive etc. Just because they are lower in the stats does not imply they are safer. They aren't doing the same kind of driving or as much of it.

The point is to reduce all accidents and really the only valid comparison of L drivers is other L drivers.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30831609.html#:~:text=%22On%20average%20twelve%20learners%20are,involved%20in%20a%20fatal%20crash%20.

Ultimately the aim is to improve road safety. If every demographic isn't willing to act on it, regardless of how bad or good they are, then it won't improve..

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191225#Comment_122191225

The data you have used to form your hypothesis isn't useful. Without knowing the average distance driven per accident per type of permit held, no reasonable conclusions can be drawn. One would assume a learner to drive less than a licence holder, and therefore having fatal accidents with greater frequency.

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191423#Comment_122191423

Every car with N and L plates should be pulled over. A novice can't accompany a learner. Only defence for display of these is if the driver is Dutch

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191423#Comment_122191423

Having driven the car occasionally having forgotten to take the L plate down - yes, I should have but the idea of seizing a car because of this omission is farcical because I'm not actually creating any danger as a result.

In fact, I'm a little dubious about the benefit of them anyway. If they're supposed to be a signal to other drivers to go easy on the learner, they don't work in the sense that many other driver's behaviour deteriorates noticeably when they see L plates.

tohaltuwi

When I see an L plate I automatically adapt my driving to accommodate the learner, I just don’t get people’s impatience with people in the learning process, we were all there. I do have impatience for people on their phones and taking the p1ss on the road.

GLaDOS

I'd do away with N plates altogether, mostly just encourages other drivers to act like dicks.

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191703#Comment_122191703

I do know of one older driver a good few years ago that had a full license but had L plates up as they felt it meant other drivers would give them a break/be more forgiving of their subpar driving.

jiltloop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189367#Comment_122189367

Absolutely. I see it every day at the 2/3 pedestrian traffic lights near my house. Every time I'm waiting at the lights I see people with their phone in their hand or on their lap.

Also as a cyclist in town, every time I am stopped at lights in traffic I see motorists, red light - pick up the phone, light goes green, they get beeped and they drop the phone and take off in a rush or with a fright (not checking their mirrors or around them).

There should be cameras at every junction in cities which catch people using their phones while driving. It's so commonplace at the moment it's frightening. People are so addicted to their phones they can't sit idle for 2 minutes at a red light without picking them up.

Flinty997

Enforce the current rules. They aren't doing that, never mind new ones.

ToweringPerformance

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122193213#Comment_122193213

They are unable to that's the problem so they bring in new ones to make it look like they are proactive.

Kurooi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122192165#Comment_122192165

Logically yes I agree I wish we had better , but you see RSA releasing info such as this:

https://www.rsa.ie/road-safety/campaigns/male-drivers

When pinning blame on young, male or both and calling those "risk groups" is RSA ever factoring that young people, or male, drive more? If RSA , Gardai, media can make claims like this unchecked why do you expect a common Joe to be able to provide better more in depth analysis? They're the authority and they make vague sex or age discrimination all the time without having to prove any sex or age related driving patterns.

We're going to settle for the best available data, and hey if at the end of the day L permit drivers kill less people on the road because they're not driving as much the end result is all the same - the article is exaggerating how much of a threat they are to you, L permit holders don't kill any more people than the average driver.

We should expect better data and better journalism.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122193875#Comment_122193875

Exactly, nicely summarised.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122192189#Comment_122192189

For the purposes of clarity, I did not advocate seizing a car for having an L plate with a qualified driver. I said that a vehicle with one driver and a L plate should be seized if it was in fact a learner driver and a fine imposed otherwise.

And the L plate as an alert to an L driver is ineffective if the L driver only does a hour a week in it and their Da is driving it for 30 hours in an entirely different style.

magicbastarder

FWIW, it seems 53% of drivers are men, 47% women. that doesn't allow for one group driving more than the other, though.

(That was a reply to Kurooi's post, btw)

animalinside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190959#Comment_122190959

It does sound like quite the farce, having a "crackdown" on learner drivers.

Not a crackdown on drug dealers or violent criminals or bank account fraud or human trafficking - a crackdown on learner drivers.

Putting the taxpayer money to good use no doubt.

purifol0

Punishing L drivers even more while the driving test waiting lists stretch more than 6 months. FFS.

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191645#Comment_122191645

I'm happy enough driving round with both plates on TBH