No conviction for west Cork landlord who took away tenants car, dug a big hole and buried it.

Rows Grower

The man was owed rent and the car was an eyesore in his opinion so while the lady and her daughter were on holidays in the USA he put the car on a trailer, brought it to his own place, got a big machine, dug a huge hole and buried it, as you do. The Judge left him off with no conviction but ordered him to pay his former tenant a thousand euro within a week.

He also moved another car they owned from the driveway of his house to the back of the house where it mysteriously caught fire. He wasn't charged in connection with this incident.

The man had previously been ordered by the RTB to pay the couple nearly 40,000 euro for wrongful eviction and damage to property but the same Judge over ruled this because the landlord didn't have legal representation at the RTB hearing.

It's not easy being a landlord and I suppose if they paid the rent on time none of this would have happened.

Article is behind a paywall but I'm sure someone will be able to throw it up.

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/cork/news/courts/west-cork-landlord-who-buried-tenants-eyesore-car-in-a-big-hole-in-a-field-avoids-conviction/a1387692502.html

Dug a hole and buried it.

How stupid is this fella. LOL

foxsake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058353692/no-conviction-for-west-cork-landlord-who-took-away-tenants-car-dug-a-big-hole-and-buried-it

on an emotional level,

rent arrears and holidaying in the USA. sounds like they were living beyond their means. any sympathy I had automatically transferred to the landlord.

on a practical level ,

It wasn't the worst crime and he'd no previous. has to pay her 1000e . a fair judgement

whisky_galore

This landlord fcuked about and found out.

Probably was a wreck but it wasnt his wreck to bury.

Ah the "poor old Irish landlord", why don't they just sell their spare house already and be done with it?

Oscar_Madison

With the RTB judgement just shows that no matter how frustrated you are with a tenant and no matter what you’re owed, if you take the law into your own hands by locking them out of the house, you’ll pay a heavy price.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196598#Comment_122196598

I agree, it's nice to see the judicial system have some empathy for the landlord for a change.

The only other person I feel sorry for is Eamon Ryan and all the sleep he's going to lose thinking about the damage to the planet.

foxsake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196616#Comment_122196616

Eamon Ryan LOL

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196613#Comment_122196613

Quite the opposite Oscar, you may need to read the original post again, the Judge put manners on the RTB.

blackbox

I'd love to know why the RTB awarded the tenants 40k if they weren't paying rent but could afford a holiday in USA.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196591#Comment_122196591

It was scrap and rotted and hadn't been started in years, you would have had to have paid to take it away.

€1000 is quite a generous offer on it, not based on actual value but sentimental value.

According to him she was told several times to take it away.

I'd have certain sympathies with the landlord, it seems everything was fine for years until the píss started been taken over handing over the rent, whether that was an accident or not it coincided with him being diagnosed with an aggressive form of cancer which put him in financial difficulties. Then everything escalated.

Obviously doesn't justify what he did, but there is a lot more to this than the Independents one siding of it.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196624#Comment_122196624

Probably because they think they are a law unto themselves, which they most certainly are not.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196625#Comment_122196625

It wasn't his property and he had no say on what she should do with it.

He fcuked up doing what he did, almost Basil Fawlty like behaviour.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196655#Comment_122196655

Where did I suggest it was his property?

 he had no say on what she should do with it.

Course he had, the vehicle was abandoned on his property.

What he should have done was move it onto public land and leave it there.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196671#Comment_122196671

He had no right to lay a hand on it, move it or throw it in a hole, no matter how much it "offended" him. He screwed up.

hoodie6029

RTB specifically say that for their mediation service you do not need legal representation. So it’s odd that the judge overruled them on this. And to be fair, if I had nicked someone’s car, I’d be seeking legal advice. He probably went along solo so he could later throw his hands up and say he didn’t know what was going on.
As for the tenants living beyond their means, someone else could have paid for the holiday for them and had no knowledge of their rent situation.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196689#Comment_122196689

He didn't really screw up though, the eyesore is gone and buried.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196699#Comment_122196699

The extended holiday to the USA was an annual outing for the pair so hardly paid for by someone else other than the poor landlord who it seems was unwillingly subsiidizing it.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196699#Comment_122196699

The Judge didn't over rule the RTB, he refused to endorse an order.

He is perfectly entitled to this.

In our constitution we have Equality of Arms, which basically means in an legal dispute both sides have to be given a fair opportunity to present their case.

He couldn't show up for the hearing because he was ill. So he phoned his case in.

The RTB should have postponed it.

mikethecop

RTB is a strange thing, you can sign a lease on a property and then not bother paying rent for years and leave a owner tens of thousands of euro out of pocket yet go on living in a property regardless. the years of delay and expense to get some one like that out falls on some one who did nothing wrong.

another symptom of weak leftist governments that we have had in Ireland for many years

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196689#Comment_122196689

You have moved the goal posts.

It wasn't his property and he had no say on what she should do with it.

He has an absolute say on what has been abandoned on his property.

Unfortunately the legal process to get it removed is long and torturous.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196716#Comment_122196716

You shouldn't bury cars either. Heavy metals? Fuel? Engine oil?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196625#Comment_122196625

What I mean is I thought the days of landowners burying whatever toxic waste they wanted on their land for future generations to deal with were behind us.

Evidently not.

FishOnABike

Should Mr. O'Sullivan, on his own admission, now be charged with both theft and illegal dumping for
1. dishonestly appropriating property without the consent of its owner and with the intention of depriving its owner of it.
2. disposing of the car in a hole in the ground in a field rather than bringing it to an Authorised Treatment Facility.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196788#Comment_122196788

What about all the damage flying over and back to the USA every year causes?

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196769#Comment_122196769

Important to note that in this case there isn't years of arrears. It appears to have been a couple of months at most,

https://www.rtb.ie/downloads/tribunal-report/TR1222-005872-DR1022-80404_Tribunal_Report.pdf

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196727#Comment_122196727

Says who? The only person who knows their exact financial situation is the tenants. One explanation is as plausible as the next

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196805#Comment_122196805

More than a couple, it was 4 months of rent arrears.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196805#Comment_122196805

i spoke in generalities but say if it was 6 months at 1500 its still a substantial sum and growing every month , in this case where the defaulters seemed to have plenty to spend on trans Atlantic flights it is exasperated further

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196794#Comment_122196794

He was up in court yesterday charged with criminal damage to the mini van and walked away without a conviction.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196838#Comment_122196838

The thread is specific to a particular case. Generalities like those posted may give the wrong impression that the tenant didn't bother paying the rent for years or went on to live in the property for years regardless.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196826#Comment_122196826

That is disputed. From the link;

The Appellant Landlord stated that the Tribunal had all the evidence before it and that on
the 5 September, 2022 the Respondent Tenants owed four months’ rent.

She
stated that when the Appellant Landlord texted her about the rent on the 5 September,
2022, only two months rent (July and August) had been due at that point, as the rent for
September was due on the 9th of the month. She said that she paid the rent for the
outstanding months and informed the Appellant Landlord that she would take care of
September’s rent on return from America. It was her evidence that she heard nothing further
from the Appellant Landlord and assumed that everything was fine

Also from tribunal report you'll note that the RTB made no finding re rent arrears.

Juran

We both lived abroad 2017 to end of 2019 for work. People thought we were mad for not renting our house out during thst period. When you read stories like this, it remind us of why we woukd not even consider it. I have full sympathy for the landlord, though he should have towed the car onto council land and let them chase the owner. Burying is an environmental hazard.

I have heard stories of people I know who spent a small fortune to get non paying tenents out of their properties, between lost rent and legal fees. Not all landlords are loaded. Many have mortgages on the property eg. If it was their home before they got married and moved in with their partner.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196896#Comment_122196896

So she didn't bothering paying 2 months rent until she was contacted 3 months later and then decided she could pay Septembers rent when she arrived back from holidays in October?

Do you think he had a similar arrangement with his mortgage provider?

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196699#Comment_122196699

The district court cannot overrule a RTB determination order, only enforce it. A RTB determination can only be overruled either by appeal to the Tribunal of the RTB, provided that they do so within 10 days. The determination of the Tribunal of the RTB to can in turn be appealed to the High Court within 21 days, but only on a point of law.

In any case, this was a criminal prosecution not an application for enforcement, which would be a separate matter.

As far as I can see, the landlord still owes the tennant the amount awarded by the RTB. If it is not being paid, the tenant makes an application to the district court for enforcement.

SharkMX

On a side not to burying a car. Really though the RTB should be bypassed and straight to the courts for any issues between landlord and tenant. The RTB are not fair in any shape or form and the courts would be much better and faster to deal with disputes. Have it on a loser pays the other sides costs basis. Might cost someone a fortune, but at least if someone is in the right they will get a fair shake.

Now I dont think the landlord should have buried their car if anyone thinks i think that but i would have bought tickets to see that :)

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196969#Comment_122196969

As far as I can see, the landlord still owes the tennant the amount awarded by the RTB. If it is not being paid, the tenant makes an application to the district court for enforcement.

They did already, the Judge refused to sign the determination order.

They are appealing to the Circuit Court.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196989#Comment_122196989

I wonder will the tenants Circuit Court costs be granted against the state? From my reading of the process the District Court has no discretion in enforcement of a RTB determination, it is no more than an administrative process that needs to be followed.

It would be unfair for the tenant in this case to have to bear the cost of an error and/or omission of a state body or employee.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197062#Comment_122197062

 From my reading of the process the District Court has no discretion in enforcement of a RTB determination

They changed it a number of years ago to try speed up the whole process.

AFAIK the RTB bears the costs.

But to follow on your point if the RTB erred that isn't the fault of the District Court or Circuit Court if they were to refuse to sign it as well.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196943#Comment_122196943

The landlord has not referred to any issues with his mortgage in his evidence.

This case has been widely reported on. The article in the OP only the latest one. One of the earlier ones, the tenant gave the daughter responsibility of paying the rent for July & August. She didn't. As soon as the landlord contacted the tenant, this was resolved.

If the landlord had an issue with the suggestion of paying the September rent at a later date he should have said. Either way at 5 September (date of texts) this payment wasn't late.

Danzy

Right decision, it didn't merit a conviction.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197085#Comment_122197085

One of the earlier ones, the tenant gave the daughter responsibility of paying the rent for July & August. She didn't. As soon as the landlord contacted the tenant, this was resolved.

Well no, I believe he tried to make contact and her phone was switch off, the response only came a couple of days later.

From his POV he ain't getting paid for June, July or September, quarter of a year, things then escalated.

The landlord has not referred to any issues with his mortgage in his evidence.

I didn't suggest he did, I asked you a very specific question.

Do you think he had a similar arrangement with his mortgage provider?

The answer is no obviously.

The Appellant Landlord stated that if the Respondent Tenants had paid rent and kept the
house tidy “there would have been no problem”. He stated that the dwelling was his home,
that he had survived illness and a recession and he never missed a mortgage payment. He
submitted that it took him six years to build the dwelling and it is his pride and joy. He stated
that the Respondent Tenants wrecked the dwelling

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197138#Comment_122197138

From his POV he ain't getting paid for June, July or September, quarter of a year, things then escalated.

There was never any arrears for June. September's payment wasn't yet late.

If things should escalate, there are appropriate means. An eviction notice being the most obvious one.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058353692/no-conviction-for-west-cork-landlord-who-took-away-tenants-car-dug-a-big-hole-and-buried-it

'It's not easy being a landlord and I suppose if they paid the rent on time none of this would have happened.'

Lol!

I ask you which one of us wouldn't steal somebody's car and bury it in a big hole in a field when faced with a similar situation?

Stark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196602#Comment_122196602

Tbf that's what most landlords are doing and that's why rental market supply is so fucked right now.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196689#Comment_122196689

So if I park up an leave a car on your property you've no right to get rid of it? Seems odd but the law can be strange at times.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197162#Comment_122197162

Apologies, July, August, September.

The last payment he got was June 9th, so he text on September 5th and got no reply for a number of days.

That's the escalation from his POV.

If things should escalate, there are appropriate means. An eviction notice being the most obvious one.

How long does it take on average to get an non-paying tenant out of the house?

Anyway, I'm not condoning what he did. I'm looking at it from both sides and I assume there is more to the story.

But the facts are, rent was not being paid and was at best erratic.

That was the catalyst, so whatever the excuses blame has to placed with the tenant.

As for the mini van, it had negative monetary value. It would have been costly to remove it and dispose of.

I imagine if he evicted her by going through the hoops she hadn't a notion of moving it and it would still be there in a decade.

The criminal charges were not brought by loss but malice, the judge was right to leave him without a conviction.

He awarded her a grand for it, she has done more than well.

Throwing their stuff into a manky shed was a scum bag thing to and he should be penalised for doing that.

As for paying to keep her dogs in a doggie hotel, get up the yard with that.

If you are taking 3-4 month vacations every year, give up your animals.

Juran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197184#Comment_122197184

Yes, I'd have removed it. But I would not bury it. You cant call a scrap yard as they want the logbook. So you're left with little choice. I'd tow it to local authority car park and let them send the owner the bill for them disposing of it.

I

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197226#Comment_122197226

I also assume there's more to the story. My interest in it is that I don't believe all landlords are bad or all tenants are bad. From the reporting he seems to have been around the place most days and the destroying/withholding of her property seems to be a very emotive response. There's definitely more too it.

However in this case I do believe this is a bad landlord. He has knowingly providing false or misleading statements or information to the RTB Tribunal re the rent arrears, an offence in itself. Various other instances of him breaking the law. Damage to property, illegal eviction etc.

As for something being a catalyst, if you tell me to put my hand in the fire and I get burnt, the blame is on me. Similarly the landlord is responsible for his own actions and cannot blame the tenant for his illegal actions.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197327#Comment_122197327

There is 3 sides to every story. One persons events, the others and then there is the actual truth.

One thing we know for sure about this saga is 2 Judges have looked at it and 2 Judges have been more than sympathetic to the Land Lord in question. They would be in charge of infinitely more facts than us.

I think dissolving down instances to Good or Bad voids nuance and is quite remedial.

Like I said I think reporting the missing van she was quite happy to let rot for years to the Guards in the hope of securing a criminal conviction is a scum bag thing to do, as is throwing their clothes in a manky shed.

That doesn't mean either person is bad.

Also there is no evidence in the years they rented the place that he was anything but a good landlord, cutting the grass, doing repairs, etc. In fact there was evidence that they were less than stellar tenants, dogs damaging the property and rent going unpaid, etc. You could equally conclude they were bad tenants.

But I think neither of them are inherently bad, circumstances got of control.

Anyway, I think the district court Judge was right not to sign the endorsement, I think this judge was correct in not leaving him with a criminal conviction.

So it is up to the Circuit Court now, if they refuse to endorse it back to square one.

At this stage they have all been through the ringer, no one is dead though. Best for both parties to sit down, mediate and come up with something so they can move on with their lives.

It's just an ongoing negative time sync.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197075#Comment_122197075

Application for Enforcement of a RTB determination used to be made to the Circuit Court up to 2018 / 2019 after which a change to the law to make enforcement more accessible, it was changed so that applications for enforcement of a RTB determination are now made to the District Court.

Whether one agrees or not with the RTB determination is moot. There is an appeals process through the Tribunal of the RTB, for a rehearing, and the High Court, on a point of law. Once this process is exhausted the determination is final.

The District Court (up to 2018 / 2019, the Circuit Court) have a purely administrative role in granting an execution order based on the RTB determination. They have no authority to vary the terms of the RTB determination or refuse an execution order based on a validly issued RTB determination.

Typically it is up to the person who has obtained the RTB determination to apply for an enforcement order if needed.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197453#Comment_122197453

What's your point? The order was made in March 2023.