2024 DCM Mentored Novices Thread

comanche_cor · 23-08-2024 8:58am

This morning I was thinking about my plan for next week and realized that next week is going to be a crazy busy week for me and something is going to have to give (its the week before going on holiday and its always mental between trying to get work finished up and family commitments).

My plan calls out for the following:

Plan|Mon|Tues|Wed|Thur|Fri|Sat|Sun

slingerz · 23-08-2024 9:04am

the pace is slow enough I feel 7:30/8:00 per KM usually.

Before I go I try to have the breakfast I’d expect before the big day, porridge and brown bread

marathon2022 · 23-08-2024 9:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122534234#Comment_122534234

Don't be disheartened, the endurance comes slowly in the beginning. 12.6 miles at your pace is in excess of 90 minutes time on feet. That's not a bad place to be in with 65 days to go.

If your un injured and consistent in your training there is no reason why you can't get to the start line in good shape.

marathon2022 · 23-08-2024 9:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122534213#Comment_122534213

I had a quick look and see no harm in doing the long run Wednesday. One thing I might also change would be this weeks LSR, can you move it to Saturday? and maybe 5km on Sunday recovery?

Trevorfromtheshoppingcentre · 23-08-2024 9:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122534234#Comment_122534234

I have started to focus on my carbs the day before long run and races. Big portion of white rice with lunch and dinner.

I feel a lot stronger since starting this.

Anything more than 90 minutes of running and its best to start fueling with gels or otherwise.

TheRef · 23-08-2024 9:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122533206#Comment_122533206

Firstly, take a step back and realise that you just ran 20k and see that for the achievement that it is. Most "normal" people can't fathom what you just done, so great work getting this far.

So, regarding feeling crashing from about 9 miles, there are a few things to consider, and it often starts with the pace.

If you move too fast on a long run, a couple of bad things happen:

Your body uses more carbs/glycogen for energy that you would like. We need to train our bodies to become more efficient at using oxygen and using more fat as the primary source of energy. You only have a max of 2000 (give or take) of calories of glycogen available, so without fueling, if you run out, you're done.
Your body produces more lactate, and while your body can ordinarily break it down (and use it for fuel), too much and you will eventually crash. You may have heard the term lactate threshold. That's the point where your body starts producing more lactate that it can clear. Our long runs train our bodies to run faster and longer (over a long period of time) while staying under the threshold.

Taking each in turn - are you eating what you would consider a normal diet, so you're not underfueled going into your long runs? Gels - at what point in your long runs are you taking them? Most folks take them every 35-40 mins or every 6k during the marathon so its a good idea to do similar in your training to get your body used to them. (oh and I'm not sure anyone is mad about gels, but there are plenty of varieties so you can sample and try find one that you do prefer).

The second point above is only solveable by consistent training at an easy pace. During your long runs, are you running at a conversational pace? A test for this is every so often count from 1021 to 1025 in a controlled manner. If you need to stop and gasp for air, you're going too fast. Also, when running, can you breathe through your nose for short periods, again without having to gasp for air? If not, slow down. How is your breathing changing during the run? Over the first 5k, does your effort feel "easy" and your breathing generally relaxed? Does it get more intense as the run goes on and what is it like when you get to about 9 miles? Do you feel like it is a slow build up of getting more and more difficult over the whole run?

Your runs tend to be on hilly routes and I see at times when you are running up a large hill, it elevates your HR and that doesn't really reset to the lower level even after hitting flat ground. It might be worth walking the big hills instead to keep your HR under control. It also would be worth testing your max HR as your HR during your runs looks quite high as an absolute number, but that could be normal for you if you have a really high max HR. I'm guessing it is not and again, guessing, I'd suggest you need to slow down more on your long runs and walk if you find your effort is too high. Look at ultra runners and you will see that they often walk portions of the route. In fact, I done a race early in the year with a very very long incline. In my case I said if my HR went over 163, I would walk till it recovered. I done the same in the Connemarathon this year - walked the hills and ran the flats/downhills.

Another thing to consider as well is the psychological aspect. You could have a mind block that is telling you that you are going to struggle once you get to that point, and for you it is 9 miles. A lot of runners have similar blocks, mostly around pace times and it can be hard to ignore. So, on your next long run always be thinking about what you need to do to get to the last 5k in a good state to finish well. Be over cautious if you need to.

Rememeber though that we are still only in August so plenty of time to get to where you need to be. Remember when you set out on this journey why you were doing it and what your goal was, and also realise that when they hang that medal around your neck in October, you earned that!

TheRef · 23-08-2024 9:59am

I posted this elsewhere before, but I still regularly look at it as there is so much packed into it. Might help others.

shansey · 23-08-2024 11:50am

Are there any good places in South Dublin to get gels? I was a fan of Gu (Chocolate Outrage) and recently Enervit worked well (sans caffeine). Otherwise any good websites to bulk buy them?

CWF · 23-08-2024 3:26pm

I bought this multipack SIS Beta gels from HP nutrition online, Kilarney based company with next day delivery, very competitive prices. I find them very good. Out of stock now but they have other options

https://www.hpnutrition.ie/sis-beta-fuel-30pack?search=Sis%20gel

Billy_the_Kid · 23-08-2024 4:07pm

Cycling shops usually have a good selection of gels

Sunny Dayz · 24-08-2024 3:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122534853#Comment_122534853

I use Hi5 gels and bulk buy from Buckleys cycles (local to me)

Sunny Dayz · 24-08-2024 3:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122534213#Comment_122534213

First of all it’s good to be planning ahead and figuring out a way to make your marathon training work around your life.
It may not be easy to get a long run in during the week with work etc but needs must, you’ll find a way of making it work. I understand that you may be busy trying to get finished up with work, if you need to drop a run this week, let it be a shorter one - important thing is to get the long in, it’ll stand to you and you can relax on hols knowing you’ve got it done.

Sunny Dayz · 24-08-2024 3:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122533206#Comment_122533206

Are you fueling with anything else if not using gels? Sounds like you’d run out of juice.
it is normal to start feeling a bit of fatigue at this stage. We are around halfway through the training plan at this stage, doing distances and mileage we may not have ever done before. This is where we can sometimes doubt ourselves and our ability, it’s as much a mental hurdle as it is a physical one.

Sunny Dayz · 25-08-2024 9:54pm

WEEK 10 – oooh we are into double digits....

So we have passed the halfway mark and are now into the second half of the training plans - well done to you for getting this far! It is going to start to get tough around now... We have lots of miles in the legs, loads of time on the feet, a bit of fatigue setting in and there are still some big runs to come. Just keep ticking the runs off the plan, there is no need to focus on anything more than the week ahead unless to organise around life.

So Week 10 looks like this:

15m = 24km 19m = 30.5km

How did the previous week go for you? Some great runs showing in the strava group!

- Did you complete all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?

- Did you complete all the runs at an appropriate pace?

- At the halfway point, what has been your favourite moment of the training to date?

At this stage of the plan there will be times when the legs feel fatigued - this is perfectly normal. You are clocking up mileage that you've never seen before, probably your longest runs ever and you are adding in a bit of pace to the mix now and then. It is for weeks like last week and then the next few weeks that we really have to try and keep you to easy pace, we can’t stress that enough, I know we keep repeating it but it’s from now that you’ll see the reason why we harp on about it. There is nothing positive to be gained from running faster than your prescribed paces, and at this stage you are risking injury as your body feels the wear and tear, so this week keep the paces a bit slower to start and you will find the legs stronger for longer.

If it’s at all possible, can you consider booking in for a sports massage with a local physio or sports therapist over the next week or two. See how your legs feel after it and if it goes well consider booking another about 10days/2 weeks before the marathon. If it’s not an option for you then a bath with Epsom salts is a godsend for tired legs, I should have really done that myself today!

Very best of luck this week

comanche_cor · 26-08-2024 9:08am

Week gone past:

got all S&C, mobility done
got all the runs done
ran at paces per plan
- I struggled a little with pace & weather on long run Sunday, and was a small bit behind MP for the plan. Was supposed to be 12k at 5:25, but ended up doing 12k at 5:29.

I can definitely feel tiredness in the legs kicking building, but I know that's a good thing and will stand to us on the big day! Had the epson salts bath last night!! ;)

Fav movent of training so far has to be the FD 10 mile, was great to feel the training work and enjoy the run. I remember looking around and thinking how nice the park was this time of year at mile 6 and then realizing that I was comfortable rather than struggling. Good to know that the training works ;)

I am not sure of my schedule for this week, but plan to do something like this:

Plan|Mon|Tues|Wed|Thur|Fri|Sat|Sun

I feel like this week's long run is going to push me. I know that on paper there's nothing to say I can't do it, I just have to keep telling myself that!

10k Easy
2k @ 5:25 MP
2K @ 5:10
10K @ 5:30
2K @ 5:25 MP
2K @ 5:10

rosenallis · 26-08-2024 10:16am

Hey everyone,

Half way there!

- Did you complete all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?

I decided to swap out a speed session for a slow run, but apart from that I made my running goals this week - so am happy enough with that. Ran 14m yesterday which is my longest run every which is a good buzz. I didn't make S&C goals because I tweaked something in neck during one of them and I want to give a rest.

- Did you complete all the runs at an appropriate pace?

Yes. I managed to run MP for what was presrcibed for me in part of the long run for 7M. Not confident i can keep that for 26M to be honest. But I was suprised I hit it in long run ok at this point. I find my breathing and heart rate seems to be ok closer to end, but my legs just seems a bit heavy

- At the halfway point, what has been your favourite moment of the training to date?

Every long run is my biggest ever. So get a good kick out of that.

At this point i'm broadly happy with where I am. I'm just trying to get my head around things like fuelling/ gels etc. I have a small 200ml drink and a couple of gels on long runs but was at a nutritionist talk who advised a bottle of energy drink and a gel every hour i'm running which i am just struggling with the mechanics of as i am useless with carrying stuff. How do you manage the intakes of fluids on the run? I've a hydration vest but don't fancy sloshing around a litre of lucozade sport for the marathon.

Another minor niggle is around neck/ shoulder pain on the run - does anyone have this?

SimpleDimple · 26-08-2024 10:49am

Good week last week! I got all the miles done (apart from half a mile on Wednesday due to a miscalculation in my route!). Pacing was probably too quick on the midweek runs, I have noticed some niggles starting to build up so will have to slow things down. I also had my first gel on Saturday and it went down fine, so I think I’ll stick with that particular brand.
My favourite part of the training so far has been finding new and interesting routes as the mileage builds up.

slingerz · 26-08-2024 4:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122534413#Comment_122534413

thanks for this, I am going to adopt the approach of walking the big inclines and running the flats/downhills. It is quite hilly around here so no choice in that. I wanted to do all the running as I said there’d be hills in Dublin too but if it gets me to the finish line that’s what’s important. Fingers crossed this gets me to the distance

I had the gels after 7K and 13K the last day. I have a carbohydrate drink which I am going to use this weekend along with a bar. I’m hoping that will be more palatable than the gels were

Mantis Toboggan · 26-08-2024 9:58pm

Last week was decent for me. Long run felt the best it has in a while although feet were covered in blood by the end, not sure why. Still some pain in the knee but just about manageable so far.

I'm not getting all the runs done for different reasons. Probably missing one run a week for the last month and will miss one again this week. Still though feeling quite strong 2 month's out, feeling confident providing knee holds up.

Have been able to keep paces with the plan but need to be careful not to go too far ahead.

Favourite moments, probably enjoying a few podcasts as I go along or arriving home at 8am with 25,000 steps is quite funny.

TheRef · 27-08-2024 9:33am

How is everyone getting on with hydration and fueling, particularly on the long runs?

@rosenallis , you mentioned about bringing a 200ml of water and a couple of gels on your long run, which I think is now about 23k? You will need a lot more water as the distance increases, but the amount will be unique to the person as well as the conditions and pace you run. There are options and its down to personal preference.

Hydration belts - typically a bottle attached to the belt so you don't have to carry it. I think generally they max out at 500ml (or 2x250ml) but there could be larger ones. The bottles, typically being hard plastic can slosh around. The alternative is a soft flask that can be placed into a running belt.

Hydration vests - often can carry 1.5ltrs or 2lts. Good vests shouldn't slosh as the bladder won't have any air inside.

Stash a bottle or two somewhere on your route and come back for it later.

I used all three over the years but use a vest for all my long training runs.

On race day there will be water stations every 4-5km with almost all giving out 250ml bottles (assuming like last year but don't know if the bottle deposit will change anything for this year). For the marathon, almost everyone will be using on-course water and gels they carry. Some will wear a hydration vest with carb drinks as well, but not many. So, it is worth training with that in mind - stick to water and gels during training, or whatever other strategy you are planning.

If you are planning on using Lucozade sport, I'd actually recommend looking at Tailwind. Its a powder that you mix with water and is a much better and cheaper option. Not sure I'd recommend it for use during a marathon except as a premix drink you might carry around or have someone hand to you.

TheRef · 27-08-2024 9:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547957#Comment_122547957

Ouch. Blood on your feet. You need to figure out where that is coming from. Typically it will be long toenails and/or wearing shoes that with a narrow toebox. If it is coming from somewhere else, try figure out what is causing it. Maybe consider the socks you are wearing.

If I knew I would be missing a run during the week, I would adjust the run before and add on a few extra easy miles, assuming that is doable. You can view the missed run as an extra rest day which is always good.

I'd also caution on paces in training. From experience, last year I met all my paces and distances, only having 1 really bad run which was on an exceptionally warm day. I thought I was well set for achieving the target I trained for, but nope - held it for 30km and then nope, realised I had overcooked it, even though I was running the pace I trained for.

Oh, and totally agree on the step count. It never gets old :-)

brick tamland · 27-08-2024 11:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549079#Comment_122549079

Also no problem with a quick pitstop at a garage or shop to pick up a drink. Just plan it into your route

MisterJinx · 27-08-2024 11:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549577#Comment_122549577

I was going to say this. I stopped in 2 shops on my long run on Saturday to pick up water. I have pay on my watch but if you don't have that just stick a bank card in your pocket. Sometimes it's easier than carrying a lot of water around if it's a warm day and you are expecting to drink a lot. The little break going into the shop is not going to matter in terms of the training impact of the long run.

MisterJinx · 27-08-2024 11:44am

I get this quite a bit (blood) it's from one of my toe nails that grows a little funny, even when cut short, and it digs into another toe and causes it. It's only a tiny bit in reality but feels weird on the run and the sock does be covered by the end. I just put a plaster on that toenail before I head out and it stops the problem. I also get black toenail quite a bit and I use the same solution, wrap them up, and I get no discomfort from them (when they are working their way off…)

rosenallis · 27-08-2024 11:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549079#Comment_122549079

Thanks for the information, very much appreciated. I'm just a bit confused between the balance of what to take when! I guess it depends on each individual but the gels vs water vs energy drinks is difficult to master.

Water - hydration. Assume drink what I can, when, through the race taken from water stations.

Gels & Energy drinks - to provide me with carbs & electrolytes that's needed which both provide. I should be aiming for around 60g per hour which is two gels or 2 x 500Ml lucazade sport (or Tailwind). I just can't see how consuming that much liquid is possible! And i can't see how consuming 8 gels over 4 hours is possible!

I'm learning every day on this!

MisterJinx · 27-08-2024 12:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549629#Comment_122549629

Water - hydration. Assume drink what I can, when, through the race taken from water stations.

Drink what you need rather than what you can. I sip my way along the course, drinking before I get thirsty, little and often. I don't like a lot of liquid in my stomach when running so I wouldn't drink a lot

Gels & Energy drinks - to provide me with carbs & electrolytes that's needed which both provide. I should be aiming for around 60g per hour which is two gels or 2 x 500Ml lucazade sport (or Tailwind). I just can't see how consuming that much liquid is possible! And i can't see how consuming 8 gels over 4 hours is possible!

As above, I don't drink a huge amount of liquid and therefore don't use energy drinks or tailwind when running. I may have a sup of an energy drink provided out on course during the marathon. I work mostly with gels and look to take one every 30 minutes or so including one just at the start. They can get a bit sickening so I mix with other similar products like energy chews (Cliff Bloks) so just give a bit of relief from the gels. I also mix the gel flavours (and even brands but this is not recommended for a novice gel taker!). You can also mix in jellies and any other product like bars that you like as long as you practice beforehand e.g. my wife just bought some nougat bars from decathlon that she is testing at the moment

Pawwed Rig · 27-08-2024 1:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549629#Comment_122549629

I didn't get this right until my 4th marathon and am still adjusting it.

There are so many variables including the weather on the day. Last year it was absolutely torrential during the marathon whereas on another day it will be sunny and warm.

On a warmer marathon I may take 2 bottles from the water stops. Chug one immediately and then sip the other over the next couple of miles.

Be careful of the lucozade. I got a bottle in 2022 in the last 6 miles or so and it made me sick to my stomach.

The old mantra of nothing new on race day holds true for nutrition and drinks aswell

marathon2022 · 27-08-2024 2:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122550156#Comment_122550156

Have to agree with the above Lucozade advise, I never understood how this drink became a staple on race day, it always leaves me with an uncomfortable stomach while running long.

rosenallis · 27-08-2024 2:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549930#Comment_122549930

Thank you, that's very helpful. I don't drink much water generally in work or at home, so this is all new to me.

I had two gels on Sunday, and was grand, but i'd say i'd struggle to have 6+ of them. I've a serious sweet tooth so i might look to mix in the jellies/ bars and swap out some of the gels. Ideal scenario is that i've everything i need on my belt/ shorts and not energy drinks.

rosenallis · 27-08-2024 2:37pm

Do you drink energy drinks at all now out of curiosity @Pawwed Rig after that incident?

2024 DCM Mentored Novices Thread

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