2024 DCM Mentored Novices Thread

DBB

Hi slingerz,

2019 novice here 😁

The Hal Higdon Novice 1 plan is a relatively gentle one, and no doubt best suited to you at the stage you're at.

One tip I'd give you, is to take note that you don't HAVE to stick rigidly to the sequence of days he gives you in the plan, and even says himself to mix it up if that's what you have to do!

So, how's about, for now or in the near future, running on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and long run Saturday? This means not yet having to do your 3-in-a-row, and gives you rest days right where you probably need them most right now.

Then, in a few weeks, as your fitness and stamina is heading in the right direction, maybe then start incorporating the 3-in-a-row?

The 3-in-a-row is an important element of your marathon training, to get you used to running on tired legs, but if it's feeling really tough for now, work around it until you're ready for it! The danger otherwise is that the current tiredness and fatigue you're feeling will either get you injured, or put you off the idea of running altogether!

Another tip, for all of ye... get your S&C sessions in, even if it's only a couple of short ones a week!

Best of luck to all the 2024 novices, starting out on this exciting, scary, amazing road! 😊

LostArt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122313005#Comment_122313005

Thanks. Not due til just before Christmas and not me personally 😂

Sunny Dayz

Drum roll please…….

I have not one, not two but three sidekicks to help me mentor the DCM novices for 2024!

Thanking you very much: @TheRef @marathon2022 and last year's mentor @MisterJinx

These posters have all been novices once upon a time, they've been in your shoes so know exactly what you are facing into. They have come out the other side, have further experience under their belts and are well placed to help me guide the 2024 novices to the start line of Dublin marathon this year.

Mantis Toboggan

So I've had a postpone my first week of training 😔

Woke up Monday morning and struggled to get down the stairs. Had gone for a 10k on the sunday. Quickly diagnosed myself with runners knee. Still did a 5k on both Tuesday and Thursday and played Padel, while I ran through pain it didn't get any worse through the run.

However it's still very sore doesn't seem to be getting better so will give today's run a miss and probably Sundays. I've been foam rolling, massage gunning, Pilates and stretching sessions all of which hasn't really helped so hopefully the rest will.

Hopefully I can get back into it next week as I'm already a long way behind.

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122315724#Comment_122315724

It's a good idea to take a few days off and test your knee early next week. The most important thing is not to try and make up the missed miles. Once they're gone, they're gone. This early in the plan you wont be missing much by taking a few days off.

MisterJinx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122315885#Comment_122315885

Thisis good advice. Give it a few days and see how you are. If it's still sore get yourself to a physio,a good one can work wonders. I've had similar over the last couple of weeks and cut my running to every second day to manage it.

Trampas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122315724#Comment_122315724

I had it the other week and with a race coming up I got mine tapped up to support the kneecap to get me through it. Some exercises to release it and strengthen it and you’ll be back in no time.

SimpleDimple

Can any of the mentors give some advice on what would be a suitable warm up before the long runs? I’ve always gone off the assumption of “sure I’ll be running for two hours, I’ll naturally warm up anyway”, which I know is probably wrong

The Black Oil

Leg swings (forward and back, lateral), roll the hips, squats, star jumps, high knees, jog on the spot easy, run fast on the spot x10 seconds, resistance band around the ankles (forward and back, lateral), sweeps, Frankensteins, walk on your heels, etc.

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122316548#Comment_122316548

Five minutes of simple dynamic stretches would suffice to warm up your muscles and increase flexibility, things like leg swings (front to back and side to side), walking lunges, high knees, butt kicks. Most bodyweight exercises like squats, lunges, and leg lifts will activate your leg muscles. Even a five minute brisk walk would be enough.

To get the heart rate up a bit I like to take a few deep breaths, similar to pre meditation or a few 10 to 20 second strides, these should be only slightly faster than the long slow run pace just to get the heart pumping.

Keep it simple, keep it short and you'll be grand

Trampas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122316548#Comment_122316548

Dynamic warm up if you want to do anything. I always start any run easy for the first km or 2. Even on easy runs (long or short) I be a good 15 seconds a km slower than my intended pace as I use it to warm up the muscles and get the hr under control. Remember easy is easy and don’t worry on hitting the pace number. I look at it as a 30 second range. So if your easy run is 7 min kms then 6:50-7:20 is fine as going downhill you might go a little faster and flat you might be 7:05 but nothing to be stressing about.

SimpleDimple

thanks all!

mossiepark

As the Long runs build over the next number weeks, I'd like to hear your thoughts on nutrition / hydration during these runs. At what time / distance is carrying water or gels recommended and is there any vests or belts you'd recommend?

Thanks

MisterJinx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122319711#Comment_122319711

Absolutely, @Sunny Dayz will share loads of this information as we go. You don't need to worry about it at the moment, the runs at this point shouldn't need to have have any nutrition but maybe a little water with you if you feel like it.

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122319711#Comment_122319711

Hey, hope your keeping well. If I read it correctly your on the tail end of a half plan prior to dropping into a marathon plan? Not a bad thing, what is your current schedule/distance/days etc?

Pre, during and post run hydration is very important. I would say always bring water on your long runs and try not to wait till your really thirsty, its a bit late then and wont help with recovery, if the weather heats up get some electrolytes. Your hydration levels will be very personal and determined by fitness, diet and sleep. Usually in the early part of the running adventure people feel they need more(that's you I assume) as your body adapts.

Nutrition while running is an art as well and once you get to 14-16 miles you should start practicing with gels, bring one or two, figure out what your stomach can handle, opening and holding them, I like to take mine slow over about 500 meters with sips of water, even with hydrogels.

Get a good belt, I have the one linked below a few years with thousands of miles and a few Marathons to its name, holds soft bottles , gels, phone keys whatever.

https://www.decathlon.ie/p/333176-94126-hydration-flask-carrying-running-belt-black.html

My novice year was 2019 and I was also dreaming of a sub 4(finish in 3.59.22 finish time).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057991515/my-first-marathon-and-first-log-log

To get there I used the boards plan and advice from the mentors thread. 4 hour Marathon pace is 9:09 minutes per mile, or 5:41 minutes per kilometer.

Your long runs should be no faster than 9.45- try for 10.00 per mile or 6.15/KM and learn to run slow, then slow it down even further.

The guys around here are a fountain of knowledge, ask anything

witnessmenow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320380#Comment_122320380

Personally I think gels should be coming earlier than that. 14 - 16 miles at an easy pace for me at least is over 2 and half hours of running.

I'd start considering them at runs over an hour and half. Maybe I wouldn't need them on the shorter end of that but no harm having one. Plus there are so many flavours/brands etc that you may have to try a few so no harm narrowing some of that down before you really need to start using them.

But definitely as mentioned, it's an art. Like I've learned anything over 3 gels is a bit of a struggle for me so this year I'm experimenting with getting carbs from other ways

I'm a heavier runner and I definitely seems to need more fuel than others. I ran a 10 mile race yesterday and had 2 gels and probably just over a gels worth of carbs from sweets and carb mixed drink. There were plenty there yesterday with no gels with them! But I had a big improvement over my 10 mile time from 5 or 6 weeks ago so it seemed to work well for me.

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320848#Comment_122320848

Have you tried the Maurten 160/320 drink mix yet? If you feel you cant get over an hour and a half on easy runs without in- run carbs, have one in the hour pre run and see how you feel.

If your running in the morning another recommendation would be to try and eat clean the night before, keep it simple, whole meal pasta/rice even some spuds, go easy or avoid red meat, alcohol, fatty highly processed foods like crisps, cake and biscuits. If your running in the evening just use the above advice at lunch.

From my personal experience I find taking gels during long tempo runs to be advantageous simply to stop the post run over grazing, love the biscuits I do.

Hope you can figure out your best way, its an ever changing target during waves of changing fitness and experience.

AlmightyCushion

I bring fuel and water on anything over 20k or 2 hours. I find I'm alright without until that sort of distance/time. As the weather heats up I might start bringing them on runs shorter than that but for now that is working for me.

comanche_cor

While on the subject anyone have any recommendations for any non caffeinated gels?

brick tamland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122322984#Comment_122322984

Go to a running shop and buy 1 or 2 of a few different brands and see what works for you.

I like the high 5 aqua ones as I find them easy to take but see what your stomach agrees with.

AlmightyCushion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122322984#Comment_122322984

The Maurten ones are bent to be great. I've had a load of people recommend them to me. I'm gonna try them out some day.

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122322984#Comment_122322984

During training I mainly use the Decathlon brand(€1.50 each when buying 4) and splash out on Maurten 100s(€3.75 each when buying 12)closer to and during raceday.

https://www.decathlon.ie/p/172937-195765-energy-gel-4x32-g-raspberry.html

https://www.maurten.com/products/gel-100-box

mossiepark

@marathon2022 Thanks a million for the comprehensive reply. That's exactly the advise I was after and will get out to Decathlon this week and try the belt you recommended.

So, I'm currently on track to complete the Clontarf Half next Saturday after doing a Runna plan. I've stuck rigidly to the plan and thankfully avoided injuries. Recently introduced some mobility work 1 day a week to complement my 4 days of running. This week I ran 38km including 8k tempo on Monday, 13k long run on Wednesday (this was a disaster as I was abroad and ran / walked it in 29 degree heat 🥵), 9k easy run Friday and an 8k interval today.

Runna has recommended I look to run next week at 5.10 pace but I'm given serious thought to running a PMP to see how I feel after 21k. Any thoughts on that approach? This would be 5.41/km pace to break 4 hrs. Obviously, I could just go out and give it socks aswell but I am worried that approach may lead to an early burn out before jumping on the 16 week marathon plan.

Also, interesting to read that my slow runs should be at 6.15/km pace. I'm struggling to slow it down but I am getting better.

Sunny Dayz

Evening all. 

Before I post up the plan for Week 2, it would be great if each novice could do a wee self appraisal of how week 1 went for you. Please try and be as honest as you can – nobody is here to judge you. Don’t just write I did 3 x 5km and 10 mile – fill us in on it – how did it go, how did it feel, what worked, what didn’t work. It will be handy first of all for your mentor and others reading here to get a sense of how you are getting on but also for yourself to really reflect on how your week’s training has gone.  

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not? 

Did you run the easy runs at an appropriate pace? 

Hopefully you all got in most if not all of the required runs and you kept the paces appropriate, ie not too fast. You can't cheat with the marathon and it takes no prisoners - if you take a half-assed approach to the training and it will bite you in the backside come the big day. Nobody else can do the training for your marathon except you. 

So onto Week 2, and here’s what’s instore for the week ahead: 

Plan|Monday|Tuesday|Wednesday|Thursday|Friday|Saturday|Sunday 

HHN1 |rest|3m easy|3m easy|3m easy|rest|7m lsr|cross 

Boards |rest,cross or 3m rec|3m easy|1m w/u, 3m PMP, 1m c/d|3m rec|rest,cross or 3m rec|10m lsr|2m rec 

7m = 11.25km; 10m = 16km 

This week sees the Boards plan feature the first PMP (Planned Marathon Pace) run! This is an opportunity to run a little bit faster than your easy pace but please do try to be realistic and conservative when picking your PMP. The table below indicates roughly the marathon pace (in km and in miles) required for the various target times at 15 minute intervals: 

Marathon | Pace/km | Pace/mi 

3:30 | 5:00 | 8:00 

3:45 | 5:20 | 8:35 

4:00 | 5:40 | 9:10 

4:15 | 6:00| 9:45 

4:30 | 6:20 | 10:20 

4:45 | 6:40 | 10:50 

5:00 | 7:00 | 11:25 

5:15 | 7:20 | 12:00 

5:30 | 7:40 | 12:35 

5:45 | 8:00 | 13:05 

6:00 | 8:20 | 13:40 

The warm up and cool down can be done at your easy pace, which at least 45-60 seconds per mile slower than PMP 

We know it’s very early on in the marathon training but even if you have a rough and somewhat realistic idea what you are aiming for.  A very rough way to calculate predicted marathon time is (Half marathon time x 2) + 20 mins. This will give you an idea if you are say closer to 4 hour or 5 hour. We aren’t going to hold you to this pace, as the weeks go on you’ll get a better idea of your own PMP and can adjust. 

 

Best of luck to everyone for the week ahead and I look forward to hearing how week 1 went.

edit to add : if you are following Runna or any other plan - can you let us know what did for the week just passed and what the plan prescribes for you for the coming week. That way we have an idea what you’re at and can advise you if needs be.

 

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122323286#Comment_122323286

I would be interested to hear what's on the runna schedule for this week?

mossiepark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122323484#Comment_122323484

Sure, I have a 6km easy run tomorrow followed by a race day practice on Wednesday consisting of 3km warm up at easy pace incorporating some 100m strides. Then 4 x 1km at half marathon race pace with 60 sec walking rest between each. A 1km cool down to finish.

No other runs until the HM on the Saturday

slingerz

have to say I think week 1 went good enough. Didn’t put me off staying going at least.

I think I didn’t realise the impact 3 days in a row would have on me, was well drained looking at the 3rd run. A consequence of such a low base coming into this training. The LSR on Saturday was good maybe felt a bit tired and dehydrated for the final 2/1.5KM of it but nothing outrageous.

Also did the runs without taking a walk break with the exception of a sheer hill about 6K into the LSR. Legs feel fatigued today for sure after it though

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122323514#Comment_122323514

That looks pretty spot on, as for the pace. Both options are fine, the recovery from racing will be a little longer but no loss this early in the marathon plan.

comanche_cor

Not sure of the level of detail is needed but decided to give the full fat version, happy to slim down in the future ;)

summary:

• missed one S&C
• did all runs according to Runna plan (planned 33.5k/completed 35.1k)
• picked up a niggle (hip flexor & glut) - nothing serious atm, hoping I can work my way through it.
• going on marathon pace table above what I have in my head of 5:27 may be a bit high

Monday:

S&C (morning) / Yoga class (evening)

Rushed through S&C a little, was under time pressure. Felt that the sets were not too demanding so used short rest periods. I under estimated what I was doing as felt some DOMS the next day!

Tuesday:

7k with 3k Tempo (2k warmup, 3k @ 5:05, 2k warmdown)

Was not feeling the motivation for this at all, bit of a miserable day and was trying to squeeze in on my lunch break. Ran the tempo pace a little fast @ 4:56. Ran a route I have not run in a long time, got a few PRs on strava, always nice to see.

Also cycled into work - 26k total.

Wednesday:

Yoga

Followed a Runna yoga class - was feeling a bit tight, but felt the yoga helped. Got out the foam roller for the first time in ages, what an instrument of torture :)

Thursday:

7.5k with 10x400 repeats(2.5k warmup, 5x400 @ 4:30, 5x400 @ 4:30, 1k warmdown)

Was very windy out - was going to do these on track, but decided to do these on an out and back course and not do too many repeats into the wind. Thought I would struggle to see all the repeats through at this pace but keep all intervals between 4:15 and 4:30 bar one which was uphill and doesn't count, so was happy with that! :)

Did unfortunately feel some niggles in right glut and hip flexor. Time to get out the foam roller more!

Friday:

Rest Day

Sat:

6k Easy

Did 1k followed with parkrun at St. Anne's.

Went out with the 30min pacer. Really enjoyed this run despite the rain. Stuck to 6:00k apart from a 500m kick to the line, couldn't help myself ;) For some reason was shattered on Saturday afternoon - possibly not a great week sleep wise.

Avg Pace: 5:53

Sun

13k Long Run

Plan called out for no faster than 5:50ks with the opportunity to do a faster 2nd half. Average pace was 4:47. I did 8-11k @ 5:25. Other paces were in around 5:50 mark.

Felt okay on this run - before I did my faster 3k felt like I would be able to go on for much longer. Was happy enough to finish up however when I did reach 13k. There probably was another few k in the tank, but was happy to finish.

Avg Pace 5:47

Next Week:

Am most likely going to skip S&C in order to give hip flexor and glute some rest and a chance to recover. Might end up juggling around some of the runs at the end of the week as going away for the weekend.

Mon: S&C

Tues: 7k -Tempo 1200s, 3x (1200 @ 4:55, 400 @ 6:10)

Wed: S&C

Thus: 6.5k Intervals K200s, 3x (1k @ 4:50, 200 @ 4:25, 90s walking rest)

Fri: Yoga

Sat: 6k Easy

Sun: 14k LR

rosenallis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122323354#Comment_122323354

Hey Sunny Dayz,

I am in week 4 this week of 20 week Runna plan. Going ok. Have a bit of problem in tendons when running, but doing lots of heel raises, etc so hopefully it eases off.

Week 3 was:

• Tuesday - Tempo 2.8M. Thursday Intervals 3M, Friday 3.4M Easy Run, Sunday 6.8M Long Hilly. There's 2 x S&C and 1 x Yoga as well.

Got on fine. The intervals/ Tempo include about .6m warmup and cool down. And the easy and long runs are at a slow enough pace, so my only question really is if i'm running enough. When i see the Hal plans and 3 consecutive days and it just seems i'm doing less but it could be in my head!

Week 4 is planned:

• Tuesday temp rolling 300s, 1.9M, Thursday Longer hill repears 2.3m, Friday easy run 2.8M, Sunday long run 4.3M, & 2 x S&C and 1x yoga. (it's calling this a deload week)

My other query is really that i don't have a clue what my marathon pace really is or what i should be aiming for!