Non-Irish-Eligible/Qualified quotas for the Irish provinces

Jump_In_Jack

Mods can close this if it’s covered somewhere already.

Just read a few posts in a few of the provincial threads and thought a dedicated discussion thread might be better.

The main point is the way the IRFU decide on NIE/NIQ players and their allocation to the provinces.

I find it very interesting as it seems to me to be a multifaceted problem.

How should the IRFU and the provinces best operate the signing of NIE/NIQ players?

My own view is it should be done under a guiding set of principles and each case could be assessed with an overarching goal in mind.

For example, Irish-qualified International-level props are highly valuable, even critical, to the national side, so decision-making around allowing players to be signed as props has to be managed extremely carefully with a lot of considerations at play.

My own opinion is that the IRFU are getting the balance right most of the time, but the next chapter on this issue will perhaps be more challenging as the 5-year rule reduces the possibility of project players, so the focus has to switch more to Irish-Qualified players, and developing Irish players.

Podge_irl

I don't think the IRFU have hard and fast rules on the situation and I do think that is a good thing. There should be an element of flexibility to it and I think they do generally treat it on a case by case basis.

I do think in general they err on the side of too much caution at times, being overly concerned with blocking IE players who frankly will never be good enough for Ireland anyway. But I would still say they broadly get it right.

Former Former Former

we tried this to solve a very specific problem in 2011.

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2011/12/21/irfu-player-contract-policy-agreed-to-aid-development-of-irish-qualified-players/amp/

Seems like the only problem we’d be trying to solve now would be gripes among fanbases about (allegedly) uneven treatment

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222108#Comment_122222108

I think making the "rules" so rigid and transparent was ultimately silly and they seem to agree as they've quietly dropped it.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222108#Comment_122222108

Where's the middle ground here, FFF?

There has to be room for discussion that doesn't constitute "alleged uneven treatment" but also doesn't call everything a gripe, abuse, resentment…

aloooof

My own take is that they seem to be more stringent with key positions like TH and 10, which makes sense.

In the main, they get things right, but it's a difficult one to square as for guys further down the national depth chart, an NIQ is no more blocking a player than an IQ who isn't anywhere near the international radar.

With my Munster hat on, front-row has been the obvious weakness for us for awhile now. As much as I had high hopes for Josh Wycherley, an NIQ loosehead could be a real game charger for us (tho Loughman has improved a lot in the last 12-18 months or so; I still think he has the occasional upright carry, but his handling and scrummaging seems to have come on a fair bit).

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222187#Comment_122222187

not touching this with a barge pole

ulsteru20s

i think people are kind of blind to how much of a handicap only three NIQs or even four is to winning in europe for ulster, munster and connacht,,, and leinster in a few years (and partially now). Especially with position restrictions. Its really hard to produce elite talent evenly everywhere or find that on the IQ market.

In Leinster's case, assuming the same rate of talent production isn't enough as three of their major elite players aren't homegrown in lowe, jgp and henshaw. Project players are done so that avenue is closed. Also, even if their talent production increases, again its really hard for that to be evenly spread.

My view on NIQs is simple. Let everyone have five, any position, no two in one position.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223669#Comment_122223669

So we're going to have 20 NIQs across the four provinces, but no 2 in any one position?

Would you have no issue with all four provinces, for example, having THPs?

Also - I must have missed the info that Robbie Henshaw was a project player. I didn't realise growing up in Athlone in Leinster he would need to be here for 3/5 years to be considered eligible.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223748#Comment_122223748

Ah I would have thought everyone would have figured that henshsw isn't leinster home grown. Aure we have plenty commenting about players from other provinces/areas of ireland playing forba different peovince to the one they gre up playing for/in

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223748#Comment_122223748

Yea, i don't care if all the provinces have THPs. Its no two in one position in one province. Teams play 3/4 THPs a season and its a two man position when two players should play good minutes in each game. Its unlikely every province could simultaneously afford or want a starting THP at the same time anyway. They are really expensive at the elite end.

Also, whenever anyone points out the extreme depth at some positions at leinster, the answer is always that those guys get enough minutes. Same deal. If provincial coaches don't rotate enough.. well the irfu has a big say in who gets hired.

If you want to fully rule out positions that's fine, but i hate the system of this province gets that and then another can't.

Henshaw came from connacht. Its extremely unlikely leinster get an elite player directly from another province again. That has only ever happened once. The point is that their talent production would need to increase to make up for that to maintain the same talent. I figured i didn't have to actually spell that out.

ShineyShiney

I agree, I think that the easy option of going shopping is now fairly closed with the 5 year rule. That's now a lucky accident if a province signs a NIE player who remains and stays fit long enough to be of interest to the national side.

Longer term thinking means under 19 and under 20:s now become a far more valuable commodity. Every province must be keeping very close tabs on upcoming key players and trying to attract them to their academy or offering early pro contracts.

Connacht by nessecity are slightly ahead of the process, Illo, Lasissi. Munster in fairness tried their best but it hasn't worked out with Salanoa so far, (due to injury) and Knox. Salanoa may well work out yet.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222229#Comment_122222229

Munster have

Loughman, Kilcoyne, Wycherley

Archer, Ryan, jager salanoa

None are Ireland starters and haven't been in ireland 23s regularly so munster aren't as exposed to players having to be rested as much.

Leinster have Healy, Porter and Furlong in Ireland 23s with Milne & Clarkson as back up. Alaalatoa and Ed Byrne are leaving. So and NIQ THP on one year deal is prudent.

RichieRich_89

Project players still seem possible to me. If you say they have to be IQ by the time they're 30, say, it still allows you to look at 22, 23, 24 year olds. 25 would be cutting it a bit tight, because by the time you've sealed the deal and they've finished over there and come over maybe they're 26, but it's still doable. Early 30s wouldn't be a bad age for a high quality prop.

Maybe South Africans are less likely, because if they looked good after 4 years the Springboks would be quite likely to just give them a cap. New Zealanders in the backs would probably be the best targets. We often hear how Ireland lack athleticism and pace on the wing.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224443#Comment_122224443

I'm not talking numbers. I'm talking quality.

Loughman, a 35 year old Kilcoyne and Josh Wycherley is an obvious area of weakness for Munster next season.

Front row in general has been an obvious area of weakness for Munster for awhile, and an NIQ could've really helped.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224544#Comment_122224544

Nucifora is probably wary of cute hoorism too. Maybe Munster don't try very hard to sign a Peter Dooley or an Ed Byrne when they become available because they don't want to weaken their argument for getting an NIQ.

Maybe they look at Ryan at loosehead for next season, which is a good short-term fix at least.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224468#Comment_122224468

I'd agree it seems possible but no one has tried it yet it seems.

I think allowing some big tight five project players would be interesting. One each?

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224618#Comment_122224618

At the end of the day, how likely is that either of them will actually play for ireland? It would require a pretty insane injury run.

It doesn't seem worth it to protect depth that deep.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224544#Comment_122224544

But there in lies the problem. Munster haven't really produced an ireland regular prop since Hayes/Horan. Kilcoyne has 50ish caps but mainly as a sub IIRC.

Leinster have produced Furlong, Porter, Healy, McGrath, Moore. Three of them are still in Ireland 23s regularly so Leinster don't have as much access to them as Munster do to the guys I listed above.

Leinster signed Michael Bent, Mike Ross.

McGrath (injury) and moore (move/injury) would have had more caps but for circumstances.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225224#Comment_122225224

And Ireland selection shouldn't be the only criteria for sanctioning an NIQ signing. The competitiveness of the provinces should come into it too.

Like I said, if Josh Wycherley isn't anywhere near Ireland selection, then having an NIQ in that position doesn't block him any more than if Munster had signed Ed Byrne.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225555#Comment_122225555

Yeah, I'm on the same page on this argument. I think improvements in the front row would make Munster competitive in Europe (as in capable of winning the tournament), which I think has obvious knock on benefits for development of existing players and also driving kids to play the game across the province etc.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223669#Comment_122223669

We don't need 5, the provinces don't need 5, 3 is more than enough and the provinces need to concentrate on their academy programs

Clo-Clo

Everyone of these threads it's the same posters going on about the same time. we want more NIQ because that will magically make their provinces more competitive and in reality it probably won't

It will cost the IRFU more money, it will reduce the number of available players to ireland, players will lose out to NIQ either on game time or they will be let go from provinces as they try to afford to buy in NIQ.

None of the provinces are self sustainable, they are all held afloat by the IRFU. Even if the provinces all done a little better in Europe they would still be held up financially by the IRFU. Some of the provinces have huge loans that they are paying back over multiple years.

Like who in their right minds thinks the best thing in the middle of all of this is to start signing more overseas players?

We are losing irish qualified players last season and this season again because they are not getting enough game time at provincial level. How is more NIQ going to make that better?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226148#Comment_122226148

Everyone of these threads it's the same posters going on about the same time. we want more NIQ because that will magically make their provinces more competitive and in reality it probably won't

Of course it will. Munster, as an example, are a very good team with an absolutely sub-standard front row. An NIQ there will a) definitely improve them and b) not block anyone with the remotest chance of an Irish call-up anyway. It's the exact scenario a high-impact NIQ should be brought in for.

If we are going to go down the road of economics, it would certainly be a more intelligent use of funds than bringing in Jordie Barrett.

We are losing irish qualified players last season and this season again because they are not getting enough game time at provincial level.

Who is this? Cause I can't think of anyone we're losing that I would care about losing.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226159#Comment_122226159

No it doesn't, the French teams have signed plenty of overseas players and it doesn't make them any better. When you sign a NIQ they are not automatically a success. Plenty have come to Ireland and been a disaster across all of the provinces.

Jordie Barrett is a short term signing for Leinster and could be a disaster or it could work out. If we are going to just concentrate on one NIQ because it's a bigger name than usual I don't think it's much of a discussion now is it?

The provinces won't be out signing Barretts or names of that standard because they can't afford them, even in Barretts situation it is a family link is the only reason he is going to Leinster. If it came to money only he wouldn't be in Ireland would he?

In terms of the front row in munster, of course it is blocking an Irish player. Once they get a player in that position the fans will move onto the next so called weakness and want someone signed in that position, on and on we go.

It's not that difficult to figure out years in advance that you might have an issue in an area, Leinster also need to look at front row by the way, they should be going to the academy and saying right we need players in this position. Then working with the academy and with the IRFU on how to resolve the issue long term.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226148#Comment_122226148

Everyone of these threads it's the same posters going on about the same time. we want more NIQ because that will magically make their provinces more competitive and in reality it probably won't

There's absolutely nothing "magical" about suggesting that a better player could improve a province and make them more competitive.

We are losing irish qualified players last season and this season again because they are not getting enough game time at provincial level.

Who, exactly?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226181#Comment_122226181

This is all overly simplistic; you could apply the same logic to suggesting Leinster should pick Cosgrave ahead Jordie Barrett because "it could be a disaster or it could work out".

The reality is you can expect better performances from better players. There are degrees here, it's not black and white. It's not guaranteed, but it's absolutely not "magical" to suggest as much.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226181#Comment_122226181

even in Barretts situation it is a family link is the only reason he is going to Leinster.

It is in its hoop. He's going for a combination of the money and the squad and coaching. The rest is just plámás nonsense. You are the one who suggested the provinces and the IRFU can't afford more NIQs - if that was the case luxury players like Barrett should be the first ones to be refused. The provinces can, in fact, afford them, be it on their own or with outside help. It is getting the IRFU approval that is the issue.

An NIQ front row at Munster blocks an Irish player yes, but it blocks an Irish player who is functionally irrelevant to the Irish team. That not every NIQ player works out is also a terrible argument against bringing them in.

Finally, suggesting French teams haven't been any better because of their overseas signings is also utterly bizarre. It is just an incredibly wrong statement.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226297#Comment_122226297

What makes him a "luxury player"? The whole premise of the NIQ was to sign top quality international players that can add to the squad. Now becuase one if a big name it is a "luxury player"? when is it not a "luxury player"?

The provinces can't afford them, the provinces are all propped up by the IRFU. None of them are self sustaining.

Munster who you keep going on about owe a loan to the IRFU which based on the last projections they won't have paid off for over 40 years. How is Munster able to afford NIQ and they can't pay off a loan?

As I said at the start, it's the same few posters crying and whinging about NIQ in the vague hope it will make their province a little better. Nothing about what is good for the game of rugby in Ireland, if it is good for young Irish players in the academy or for players in the squads who would get dumped as the provinces try to afford these NIQ's.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226335#Comment_122226335

Imagine, fans of a rugby team suggesting a signing in a weak position that might improve them…

Still waiting on who these players are btw?

We are losing irish qualified players last season and this season again because they are not getting enough game time at provincial level.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226335#Comment_122226335

The only one coming across as "crying and whinging" in this thread is you.

What makes him a luxury player? We quite clearly don't need him and we have significant cover in all the positions he normally plays. He's likely to see himself shoved out of position to the wing as his only chance of making the starting team. Meanwhile Munster are relying on a combination of very old, very young and completely substandard front rows - none of whom are remotely in the picture for Ireland.

The provinces being "propped up" by the IRFU is also irrelevant. They need to pay some players either way and how they budget that is up to them. No one is claiming that the issue with NIQs is affordability except you. Everything you are saying is an argument for having zero NIQs, which no one would agree with.