Non-Irish-Eligible/Qualified quotas for the Irish provinces

jacothelad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226335#Comment_122226335

The IRFU does not "prop up the provinces." The provinces and the IRFU are one and the same. Take away the provinces from the IRFU and what is left? They both exist to support each other. The funds raised to support rugby on the Island are done so on the backs of the players. They actually prop up the whole edifice. The recruitment of NIQ and NIE players has always been part of the pro game. The presence of some have been extraordinarily beneficial at times while others have simply taken the place of local players. It is a conundrum that has to be explored from time to time.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226400#Comment_122226400

The provinces are only afloat because of the IRFU, none of them are self sustainable. If the provinces could claim they make enough money on their own from TV/stadium etc then you maybe could push the NIQ model, but still wouldn't see why.

Fairly simple stuff really, why would the IRFU want to spend money on players who can never add any value to the national side which is the reason rugby exists in Ireland. Plus as I mentioned getting in these players with no idea if they will or won't be successful and reducing the numbers of available players to the IRFU?

Maybe you could argue it has to be explored from time to time, but the amount of air time on boards is incredible to the same conversation over and over again. Plus it's the same posters over and over and over again. The same points, absolutely nothing new, just the latest in a poor me moan.

What exactly has changed sicne the last time this was discussed? in reality more Irish qualified players are due to leave Ireland because they couldn't get game time at their province(Joey, Moloney etc)

The academies seem to be improving across Ireland, so why now is the requirement to bring in more NIQ?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226393#Comment_122226393

Yes Im "crying and whinging" because I am saying the system is ok as it is. Try again.

"we quite clearly don't need him"? based on what?

I have never said no NIQ's, very clear on that.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226500#Comment_122226500

Fairly simple stuff really, why would the IRFU want to spend money on players who can never add any value to the national side

Because it may improve the performance of the province, getting them further in competitions, giving the IQ players exposure to a higher level of competition, thereby improving them in the process.

There's also plenty of NIQ players over the years who have been very highly spoken about towards improving standards / changing the culture at teams.

in reality more Irish qualified players are due to leave Ireland because they couldn't get game time at their province(Joey, Moloney etc)

Carbery isn't blocked by an NIQ so is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Molony regularly has had amongst the highest minutes of any Leinster player, as far as I'm aware. Whatever his reasons for leaving, it's not lack of provincial minutes. (For a player of his age profile it obviously seems to be a financial decision).

There will always be scope for NIQ players. None of this is "crying and whingeing".

Podge_irl

Having Jeremy Loughman and Stephen Archer starting a knockout match for Munster provides literally zero benefit to the IRFU or the Irish rugby team over having a far more capable NIQ player. Blocking them signing a player there, and the end result being a capable IQ player in Ed Byrne moving to England anyway quite clearly shows the current system isn't working - Ireland have lost a capable IQ player anyway, and Munster's front row is still questionable which helps noone.

The NIQ system as stands is mostly fine, but there is something of a stubborn "any IQ player is better than an NIQ" element that I think is counterproductive.

Also neither Carbery or Moloney are leaving cause of not getting provincial game time or NIQ players coming in. They are leaving cause they're not gonna be first choice provincial players and won't play for Ireland and want to make more money elsewhere. It matters to Ireland not one tiny iota that Moloney is leaving.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226890#Comment_122226890

Loughman is a good player with 5 Ireland caps. With Healy and Kilcoyne approaching the end the benefit to Ireland of him starting Munster's biggest games certainly isn't zero. He's not a Farrell favourite, but he's a reliable option they can call on.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226181#Comment_122226181

The most magical thinking in irish rugby are the ones that think the numbers of NIQs affect what happens in academies when it comes to 3-8 players.

Leinster will always be focusing on their front row in academy. Before, now and forever. Its not a question of will or want, its just that guys like furlong and porter and healy naturally don't come along that often. That's normal. Leinster will find it hard to replace Furlong in the academy and having or not having NIQ THPs will not change that at all.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226335#Comment_122226335

Vague hope… come on lol… signing better players to make teams better is a literal fact in ALL sports.

This is the weirdest hill to die on I have ever seen on here.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227006#Comment_122227006

How are they better? at the moment the argument is not for any specific players, just more NIQ's.

On another thread, I think it was you, maybe someone else, who even admitted the players might not be any better than the Irish qualified ones.

So it has nothing to do about signing better players, it's just about signing players

I couldn't care less what "hill to die on" you talk about, especially when you run from one thread to another going on about NIQ 😂 have you anything to discuss in Irish rugby apart from NIQ and the Leinster private schools which you shown many times you have no idea about but constantly discuss?

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226393#Comment_122226393

I'd agree with zero NIQs. At least for Leinster. Or I would have based on how Lancaster could develop the squad players. But it remains to be seen how that situation will evolve over the medium term. Already the 2nd XV seem less capable than before.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227024#Comment_122227024

So it has nothing to do about signing better players, it's just about signing players

This is a complete strawman; it's obviously about signing better players.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227024#Comment_122227024

Because signing better players makes team better? The bigger the market of players, the more good ones available.

Again, super weird hill to die on. This is just super basic market principles.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227026#Comment_122227026

I think leinster, ulster, munster should get same number (5 each for me). Connacht should be allowed a few more i think.

Or maybe allow connacht to be speculative with early 20s potential project players.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227048#Comment_122227048

What bigger market? Irish provinces are playing in the same market as everyone else. We don't have the same spending power as the French sides and even some of the English sides.

So who are all these magical players that the Irish can sign?

The NIQ quantity will go up, the quality fo the signings will not

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227065#Comment_122227065

The NIQ market is bigger than the IQ market.

There aren't any magical players to sign. But there are rugby players available. I'm certain every provincial coach could identify weak spots in their squad that could be improved where an NIQ player would be more attainable than the equivalent IQ option.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227075#Comment_122227075

I’m sure the province could but trying to identify and sign players of quality is the issue

When The coach’s had more NIQ the quality was questionable for players as they just signed to fill a slot and ended up Irish players not getting the game time, so this has all been tried before and the number of players across the World hasn’t massively increased and the money available in other regions has increased

so you will end up with more quantity and less quality, blocking Irish players and making the Irish team weaker.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227137#Comment_122227137

The two players you pointed to leaving because of a lack of provincial minutes were 1) Carbery, who wasn't blocked by an NIQ and 2) Molony, who has 0 Irish caps.

Molony leaving makes effectively zero difference to Ireland. I'm pretty sure you previously suggested he could return after his Bath contract and play for Ireland. With the best will in the world, that's just not going to happen.

So it makes zero difference to Ireland. In fact, you could argue that him staying would block gametime for younger, higher ceiling IQ options in the academy.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227137#Comment_122227137

When we tried it before the irish teams won more european cups even though the actual overall quality and depth of irish players was worse. Irish provinces were more successful in a higher NIQ era.

Whether that is good for irish rugby? That's more complicated. But making the actual provinces better? Its pretty clear.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227063#Comment_122227063

That's too many for me - at least for Leinster. Leinster historically have had issues developing hookers, second rowers and scrumhalves. If they had been allowed the quick fix of quality signings would they have been incentivised to address the shortcomings in development in certain areas? I would say 'no'. If you look at Sheehan's story, it sounds as if not a lot would have had to go differently for him to not be signed up by Leinster.

I suppose as a supporter of a Leinster team who have been near the top for ages and an Ireland team who in general are better placed than ever before it's easy to see things that way. I can understand why Munster supporters would want a bit of leeway for another quality signing or two.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227190#Comment_122227190

Yeah, I agree on this. I think 5 is too many.

It's a very difficult balancing act to achieve - because coaches, particularly coaches who feel embattled or under pressure in their role, would be far more inclined to go the route of short-term fixes etc and sign shorter duration NIQs IMO than give the game time to younger players.

You clearly have to have some level of central thinking around this - as for example you couldn't have a situation with all four provinces having NIQ THPs for example.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227166#Comment_122227166

Again quantity does not improve quality and in fact has the opposite affect

It also means the provinces will end up signing players just to fill up slots, then play those players because they are the NIQ player infront of Irish players. All of this was done many years ago and hence why the IRFU changed it many years ago

Which since then has meant Ireland has progressed and won more 6 natiosn etc than they ever have.

In terms of the provinces, if we take Ulster for instance, has any of the huge money signing they have made in the last 10 years made a huge difference? the odd one like Pinear was a success but the majority haven't. The big wins for Ulster have been home grown players.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227190#Comment_122227190

I honestly don't think that's how development works at leinster and all the provinces any more. They aren't trying to identify current weaknesses and deciding on academy or NTS inclusion based on that.

It definitely could affect older players and also post academy lower rated players, third year academy players. Which might not he the worst thing.

At the end of the day though, with 5 NIQs you still need to produce alot of your own players to win trophies.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227239#Comment_122227239

If the number of NIQ players doesn't make any difference to the quality of the teams, why are all but one of our european cup wins in a high NIQ era, and all of the non leinster ones?

Again, whether that's good for irish rugby is a whole separate argument.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227271#Comment_122227271

Multiple reasons why, Leinster just happened to win 5 finals in a row and have lost 4 in a row since. I would be asking why Leinster are the only team which decided to try win the Challange cup while the rest of the Irish sides seem to turn their nose up at it?

In terms of the win's it was never a high NIQ team, normally it was one big NIQ player which was the difference, not 5.

As the model should be, high quality, not high quantity.

As I said, a lot of big signing made over the years in Ulster, a lot of success stories? not really

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227271#Comment_122227271

To be fair, Munster had 2 starters and 1 bench NIQ in 06 and 3+1 in 08 (though 3 in the backline and the signs of poor academy work were starting to show I think).

We are not even talking about massively high levels.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227296#Comment_122227296

Yea, the 23s in finals were not always that high. But the squads usually had more.

I think there is something to it just in terms of being free to add that something 'different' that can really help.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227283#Comment_122227283

Yea, leinster just lost 4 in a row, and that also includes two very important project players that can't be replaced with project players. Putting even more pressure on their academy to win. Which they can't currently do.

Correllation does not equal causation but its at least an interesting place to start. We certainly were more successful in europe with higher NIQ numbers in squads.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227376#Comment_122227376

Saying Leinster "can't" currently win, while being factually accurate, isn't a realistic reflection though.

With the exception of the Saracens final (and even then if Ringrose throws the pass before half time, or Luke McGrath puts the ball in the stand Leinster are well in the mix), Leinster absolutely could have and arguably should have won each of the last three. All were incredibly tight games where marginal refereeing decisions or just a couple of moments of extreme bad luck proved decisive.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227376#Comment_122227376

Why can't they be replaced with project players or with academy players?

Your answer to everything seems to be throw hands up in air at any little inconvenience and say it can't be achieved.

As I already said, the number of NIQ during those wins was minimal with normally one star player in the team.

The number of NIQ over the year pushed into Ulster at huge money has given what success?

More NIQ's is not giving Ulster more success, in reality the opposite.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227430#Comment_122227430

Fair enough. Leinster can win but they don't. Possibly one or two more NIQ would help.

Unrelated but the more i think about this, the high NIQ era was just replaced by the project player era.

Going to 3 NIQs, and no outside source at all otherwise for players when the current project players age out is going to be tough.