Non-Irish-Eligible/Qualified quotas for the Irish provinces

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122230080#Comment_122230080

I'm not on the same page here with all of that - the whole thing around the IRFU fund the provinces thing is a circular and quasi non-sensical argument at times to me. Yeah, grand the money comes from the international matches and TV contracts, but the players are produced in the provinces, and without them there isn't a buzz or an interest or an ability to compete at an international level.

I think rugby really took off here post professionalism and captured the public at large's imagination to a large degree largely due to the provinces and the drama and romance of their successes in Europe.

Financially - the IRFU are very well managed, and I think because of that we do have the ability to selectively go out and sign good quality NIQs which predominantly massively add value to the game here.

Beyond just the excitement factor (which absolutely is pertinent), there is also enormous value in bringing in culturally different guys with a different mindset and ethos. This is most especially relevant in a place like Leinster of recent years where there is a real fear (to me) of the place becoming mono-cultural (with so many guys coming through a handful of schools). I remember talking to guys on the Leinster squad back in 2011 & 2012 who just raved about the impact someone like Brad Thorn had in even his short time there at the club. That sort of stuff is hugely valuable.

Jump_In_Jack

for next season,

Leinster will have Snyman and Barrett, and possibly a ThP incoming.

Munster will have Kleyn, Nankivell and Abrahams,

Ulster will have Kok,

Connacht will have Porch, Hurley-Langton and Cordero.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122230813#Comment_122230813

Connacht have Hurley-Langton too.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122229364#Comment_122229364

I'm open to ideas. Yours is my favourite so far.

Like you I like the 4 or so in match day squad and a couple more in overall squad that helped leinster win their first three stars. I just always assumed ulster and munster needed the same help. Its good to find common ground.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122229794#Comment_122229794

I guess i just don't think that would actually happen. Its unlikely everyone would need the same position at same time.

Would you say two max per position on island?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122231871#Comment_122231871

I’d probably just keep doing it on a case by case basis. There are times when you’d have no issue with that, but it would depend on the position and what the current pecking order looked like for Ireland at that time.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122230813#Comment_122230813

Just to compare,
Leinster will be getting two world class players, but both are surplus to requirement, and may not start for big games.
However, injuries are inevitable, and having quality impact off the bench could be a difference-maker.
Also both signings are reportedly only for next season, and appearances are going to be managed, Barrett only joining for 6 months, Snyman won’t start ahead of McCarthy in big games.
The tight-head prop situation is interesting, there is a gap being left by Ala’alatoa, but after two years he should be being replaced by a Leinster-produced player. Clarkson is the obvious replacement, and then the question is how to fill the gap behind Clarkson. One way would be to consider promoting McGuire from the academy a year early, and/or use Healy and McCarthy to cover both sides. With Porter, Milne and Boyle covering loose-head prop there should be plenty of cover for both positions.

So if Leinster just stick to two World-Class signings, one forward and one back, that might be a good template for each season, though getting players on 1-season contracts may be difficult.

Munster are retaining Kleyn, and Nankivell has one more year on his contract, and Abrahams is joining on a 2-year contract.
Retaining Kleyn was vitally important as Edogbo is out for at least half of next season, and Snyman is leaving.
Nankivell is turning into an integral part of the centre-partnership, Frisch is leaving and being replaced by O’Brien, with Scannell out on a long-term ankle injury now.
Abrahams is joining as a back three just as Zebo is retiring, and Nash has been given an upgraded and extended contract so would expect him to be in Irish squads next season.

So, Munster will have one forward, and two backs, none would be classed as world-class, and Nankivell’s contract will be up at the end of next season, leaving only one forward and one back the following season (Kleyn and Abrahams have both signed 2-year contracts) so Munster will have to produce a homegrown centre after that to add to Scannell, O’Brien, and Tom Farrell, or scout an IQ option.

Ulster are losing Kitshoff, and will be releasing Ewers in the back row and signing Kok as a winger.
Reportedly there has to be a tightening of the finances next season so Ewers isn’t being retained nor are they seeking to add another forward. The good news is there are a few high quality young players coming through in the forwards. There still might be a case for scouting an IQ forward for next season.

Connacht have 1 marquee player in Cordero, but didn’t really get any advantage out of him with missing most of the season through injury.
Porch is a good squad option, and Hurley-Langton reminds me of CJ Stander, has big performances regularly, only a pity he would have to stay playing in Ireland for 5 seasons to become IQ.

So Connacht have one forward, and two backs, and Cordero is the highest profile but wouldn’t be as good as years ago. After next season they may be down to one forward and one back.

That seems to be the future planned model for all provinces after next season. All winding down from 3 down towards 2, and probably will be looking for higher quality NIE/NIQ signings once it gets down to that level.

I think the end game may be 1 high quality forward and 1 high quality back, with assurance that a high potential player is not being blocked, and possibly no foreign signings will be allowed in the front row or in the half-backs in particular unless IQ.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233304#Comment_122233304

It just isn’t accurate to say Barrett and Snyman are surplus to requirements. Even with Snyman, Leinster will only have four senior second rows in the squad this season, one of whom is a pretty callow and undersized Brian Deeny. There is currently only one lock in the academy as well.

I actually think even with Snyman we need another senior second row option and was really hoping they’d bring back Jack Dunne before his Exeter re-signing. Ryan & McCarthy will be in Ireland squads, and Snyman is unreliable from an injury perspective and will be in SA squads, so we absolutely look light in the second row to me.

Think it’s also a bit unfair to say Ala’alatoa should be replaced by a Leinster produced THP. Leinster would argue if they still had Jack Aungier or Roman Salanoa on their books then those are the guys who would have stepped in, but they were lured elsewhere. Clarkson has developed well but he’s still just 24, a baby in prop terms.

Rory McGuire is just 21. He’s looked good, but the notion that Leinster would roll into next season with just Furlong, Clarkson and McGuire as THP options is ridiculous, especially given how Furlong’s minutes are managed. Munster, by contrast, have four senior THPs on their books and at least another two in the academy (plus Kieran Ryan who appears to be swapping to THP).

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233304#Comment_122233304

So in other words, Leinster players re surplus to requirements and all the rest of the provinces are not. Leinster do have a free slot for next year so I expect they will sign a player for that slot. If that's in the front row then so be it

Who is winding down on numbers? the 42 just reported that Connacht have been given approval for another NIQ for injury cover

Ulster reduction in numbers of because of mismanagement in Ulster in terms of the home game in Europe, also the naming rights of the stadium which are still up in the air. By the looks of it they have got these things sorted and a new coaching ticket.

Munster have their slots full and I don't see anyone saying they won't be able to keep those slots full

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234102#Comment_122234102

I'd say Leinster would be okay with zero NIQs from the start of the season after next. They could sign Josh Murphy to replace Snyman, and Deeny and O'Tighearnaigh will be more developed by then, all being well.

Maybe they try to sign a pacy back three player like Shaun Stevenson.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234265#Comment_122234265

Leinster are bulk supplier to ireland, if they can manage without any NIQ then the rest of the provinces have no reason to request NIQ to cover for international games

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233960#Comment_122233960

Ah I'd consider Barrett about as surplus to requirements as it comes (albeit you'd be a fool to say no to him).

Snyman isn't surplus per se, but I would argue we didn't need someone of his quality given our starting locks, but if someone of his quality is available then you absolutely go for it. We absolutely needed a body there though.

As regards the prop, I do think we need to bring someone in but I would hope they play less than Ala'alatoa did.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234355#Comment_122234355

The other provinces aren’t requesting NIQ’s to cover international duty.

They’re doing it to bolster squad quality. There should always be scope for that.

Jump_In_Jack

Surplus to requirements meaning not needed to start in the playoffs, and not needed in the pools or league matches to get into the playoffs.

Signing world class players to use for impact off the bench could be viewed as surplus to requirement, but the counter argument is their playing time will be managed and if injury occurs then they’ll slot in, and they might make an impact off the bench to win an important playoff match.

I see both sides of the argument and in Leinster’s case the argument for signing is better than it would be in other provinces as they have so many Irish players needing their time to be managed and also they are consistently performing at a high level and drawing in big support, as well as falling short a few times in the playoffs so a little nudge of quality might make a real difference.

I could understand the argument that there would be IQ options to fill that role, for example Gavin Thornbury could do a job as an impact sub, or swap Baird into lock when needed.

The more I think about it replacing Ala’Alatoa should be done with an IQ player, like Ulster did last year with the likes of Greg McGrath, Ben Griffin and James French, and that’s on top of McCarthy and Healy able to cover both sides.

All in all I think Leinster deserve their two signings next season, one forward and one back, and I wouldn’t begrudge that each year at all of the provinces.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234616#Comment_122234616

You’re saying not needed to start based on an assumption that literally nobody gets injured. As I said, if Snyman isn’t there the next guy up is Brian Deeny. It’s hard to call Snyman surplus to requirements in that scenario.

Jordie Barrett is going to start too, I’m not certain in what position but there’s no way he’s sitting on the bench.

Ulster signed guys like Greg McGrath, James French and Ben Griffin and each one was an unmitigated disaster, and patently not capable at even a URC level. At least two were released mid-season and I’d say French’s days are numbered too.

If Leinster have the funds to sign better quality players and can attract them to the club then it absolutely makes sense to sign the best player you can get.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234698#Comment_122234698

Jordie Barrett is going to start too, I’m not certain in what position but there’s no way he’s sitting on the bench.

If he starts anywhere but 14 though, he is going to be pushing out a player that we probably shouldn't be pushing out.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234722#Comment_122234722

Not necessarily. For guys like Jamie Osborne, he sees exactly what the standard is and where he needs to be. He’s still very very young, and he’ll have to push himself even harder now to start those big games next year.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234732#Comment_122234732

Sure, but Osborne is only there cause of injury as things stand anyway. If any of Henshaw, Ringrose or Keenan end up benching for him it's a mistake (particularly in Keenan's case as I would argue he's just better).

I think having someone of Osborne's calibre as the "injury backup" is a wonderful position to be in. Would argue the same for JOB at 15. This is why I would argue Barrett really is a luxury signing, albeit again I super wouldn't turn him down. I think if he starts most likely it is going to be at 14 as something of a roving winger.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234722#Comment_122234722

The premise of the thread is more NIQ, now you are saying Leinster shouldn't play a NIQ because it will push out a qualified irish player?

So I guess you agree that more NIQ is not the answer then?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234906#Comment_122234906

Not all teams are Leinster.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122234906#Comment_122234906

The thread is a discussion thread for how NIQ and NIE players are allowed and allocated to the provinces. Some posters have argued for increasing the number, some have argued to reduce it.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122235067#Comment_122235067

The “argument” to increase it doesn’t really seem to be many

It’s more down to a few wanting the provinces to have no oversight from the IRFU which will never happen because of multiple reasons

So after x number of posts the conclusion seems to be 3 per province, which is already the number, with oversight from the IrFU, which is already the model 👍