Deposit return scheme (recycling) - Part 2

dazberry

We've been sinking the price increase (tariff, tax, deposit - I'll leave others argue the finer points of that one) and still mostly use the green bin. We keep the cans and bottles separate and if they're there on green bin day they go in, otherwise they may or may not be brought down to our nearest shop when convenient.

But what I just discovered (and in fairness it is printed on the voucher) is that vouchers can only be redeemed in the shop where the bottles are deposited. Obviously this was a carrot for the shops to take in the machines, but lads this is just crazy, it's really tail wagging the dog stuff.

If the scheme was really about recycling IMO:

a) it shouldn't matter where the bottles are deposited because potentially you should have machines in places that are not attached to retail, e.g. train stations etc.

b) non-redeemable or unreadable/damaged items should still have the option of being accepted but without deposit return.

I'd sort of hope that the scheme will be improved to address such issues as time goes on - I'd be gladly surprised but won't be holding my breath.

LambshankRedemption

b) non-redeemable or unreadable/damaged items should still have the option of being accepted but without deposit return.

This is a key and frankly obvious issue with the current system.

I have experience with DRS from other countries and what it does is weigh and scan the dimensions of the container. If it is not recognised, it gives you the option to return the container to you, or accept the container into the machine but not give the deposit.

My last time using the RVM nearest me, 5 out of 6 cans were not recognized. All from the same pack so no reason for them not to be recognised, but there I am with a bag with 5 cans. Where did I end up putting them? In the general waste bin beside the shop.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122300815#Comment_122300815

You cannot bring items back to any point of sale due to exemptions etc. You can only bring items back to certain points of sale.

Genghis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122300833#Comment_122300833

I don't get this. They are going from bottle to can, after DRS?

I had thought maybe some can only beers might move to bottles to avoid DRS - but moving to can from bottle doesn't make sense.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122301995#Comment_122301995

Apologies, the first time the word "can" was used should have been "bottle"

I have made this correction to my original post, thanks for pointing it out

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122298505#Comment_122298505

Of course its gonna have a positive effect on litter levels.......my point has always been, there were many other, less ridiculous changes and amendments that could have been made to the existing schemes that would have done the same.

There's absoloutel zero onus on the producers of the items to do anything about:

1. Producing them in the first place.
2. Reducing the amount produced.
3. Covering any of the cost of dealing with the process.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122302198#Comment_122302198

The 500ml bottles of Crafty Pale Ale were never out of stock in my local Lidl.

The 330ml cans are sold alongside.

It gives a choice to consumers.

I much prefer the glass bottles.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122302312#Comment_122302312

I'm sure we could have tried something else but would it result in 90% collection ?

In your points 1 and 2 you seem to be suggesting that companies stop or reduce production.

I think they are unlikely to do that and I'm not sure consumers want them to.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303189#Comment_122303189

We have that rate of return for glass bottles, no deposit on glass bottles. If we had the return capabilities without the deposit on plastic and cans we might get similar results.

Maybe not, admittedly without trialling it there's no surefire way to know

Genghis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303189#Comment_122303189

On your last point - Before DRS consumers were unlikely to return bottles and didn't want to. But a consumer deposit made them.

A levy on plastic single use plastic would work as a constructed incentive on producers who aren't inclined to reduce plastic.

Re 90% Collection, imho is not the right KPI either, it should be volume or % reduction in SUP containers sold.

bog master

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303358#Comment_122303358

As far as plastics PET's, collection rate is a load of bull until we get a a plastics recycling industry. Recycling rate is what matters and even then there is a good bit of bull about the environmental gains of recycling plastic.

IMO, plastic use/production must be reduced, recycling is a tiny band-aid.

callaway92

Words from George Lee on RTE News yesterday - not sure if he was quoting the DRS CEO or something but he said:

‘It’s proven that something monetary proves a high incentive to take on something like this for the public’

This a not a monetary treat, not a monetary prize etc., we are just getting our **** money back

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303189#Comment_122303189

We could have tried a number of things. Several of which we will need to do now anyway with the flaws that have been identified with the DRS in it's current guise.

If you put free container recycling bins in place with the standard of the DRS machines in public spaces in conjunction with the enforcement of requiring recycling bins in every residence you'd have drastically improved collection rates. Throw a non refundable charge on top of each item(essentially something like what has happened with all the producers who have increased their prices) to cover costs of making the changes and enforcing existing legislation/marketing budget you end up in a position where you will eventually put pressure on producers via consumers to come up with more sustainable ways of packaging their products.

I am saying that yes, companies need to come up with more innovative and sustainable ways of distributing their products. If you think that recycling of ever increasing numbers of items is sustainable and will lead do a better environment you have a few things to think further about.

Right now the companies have no incentive to improve things, the LAs have completely outsourced this problem and we are all being taken for a ride.

And by the way, we don't know that this scheme will result in 90 percent collection.....but we need to be looking at more figures than just collection rate.

Tork

I made the mistake of taking a load of bottles and cans to a RVM on Saturday evening when the bins were full. Aldi and Tesco were both out of order (Tesco in particular is piss poor at keeping their 4 machines up and running) so I had to go to Lidl. I hadn't intended to shop in Lidl but there was no way I was going to come home again without getting rid of them. It's bad enough that we have to go to all of this hassle to get our money back (no sign of our bin charges reducing of course) but when the retailers can't be arsed doing their bit to help, it's maddening.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303358#Comment_122303358

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303404#Comment_122303404

I completely agree that we need to reduce single use plastic.

The problem is that both the producers and the consumers seem to enjoy the convenience of it.

It's going to take some time to even reduce sup never mind phase it out.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303487#Comment_122303487

See my reply above.

For the time being DRS is what's been chosen.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303634#Comment_122303634

And it's not fit for purpose but we will be told it is.

It's a complete hands off approach by the state and producers that suits the big businesses whose profits are in the multi millions annually.

It's nothing more than a box ticking exercise and a bad one at that, that's not really focused on the environment at all.

kippy

Bin charges are going up as a result of this scheme. Not reducing. I received a text message on Friday from my provider who are adding 1.75 to their monthly fee..I have an email in with them asking why.....but logic would suggest it's because of lost revenue as a result of this scheme.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303750#Comment_122303750

When the euro came in prices went up, when MUP came in prices went up (beyond MUP), DRS comes in and strangely prices went up, waste companies lost money and the price goes up - only one group gets f*cked here and its never the producers and one company is dancing all the way to the bank.

Tell me we're not getting screwed without telling me we're not getting screwed.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303621#Comment_122303621

We could have tried to switch people to using aluminium cans, by putting a levy on sub 1 litre plastic bottles, the sort most likely to be drunk out and about and so not end up in green bins.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303692#Comment_122303692

It's not as if any incoming government is going to make any unilateral move to reduce sup.

Both producers and consumers seem happy with the status quo.

Any change will most likely come from the EU.

It's going to take one heck of a campaign to achieve a serious reduction in sup.

In the meantime we have DRS and I'm trying my best to make it work for me.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303750#Comment_122303750

It'll be interesting to see what they say because to date AFAIK no company has cited loss of revenue due to DRS.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303831#Comment_122303831

Something like a 30 cent deposit on plastic and 15 cent on aluminium ?

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303856#Comment_122303856

It will, but all logical reasoning would suggest they have lost revenue as a direct result of this scheme and need to replace it somehow…

I doubt they will directly cite DRS as the reasons. Twill be some wishy washy 'costs have gone up' spiel.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303842#Comment_122303842

Sure both producers and consumers were happy with the status quo before this scheme.....

Aren't we all trying to make it work for us?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303880#Comment_122303880

I was thinking more 25c on plastic and nothing on cans. Get people to switch back to cans, which there doesn't seem to be the same concern about versus plastics. The information I saw on Re-turn was that cans were included to make the economics of the scheme work, not because we weren't hitting targets for collection etc. Also aluminium recycling appears to be more efficient \ less impact than plastic. Dumped cans also don't seem to have same impact.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122301943#Comment_122301943

I didn't think I'd have to specify that any of the many DRS devices could be used but I guess this is a group who don't know what a deposit is.

Atlantic Dawn

Have any journalists done any experiments with trackers to see where the items from the RVMs are ending up and the journey they have taken?

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122304017#Comment_122304017

Would they survive the shredder?

Atlantic Dawn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122304035#Comment_122304035

The cans would from what I've seen getting loaded in to the crates from the machines. The bottles I'd say no.