Deposit return scheme (recycling) - Part 2

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717095#Comment_122717095

Not sure, it was a round that included alcohol and I paid by card without a receipt. If it was it was 15c on a €25+ round so unnoticeable

My point is it isn't re-turnable

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717082#Comment_122717082

City bin increased their prices in the past 6 months citing increased costs for them without blaming DRS. Many providers have or are planning increases currently. As I said before it is only logical to assume that as their income levels have been hit by DRS someone is going to have to cover it.

But some choose to ignore this fairly simple piece of logical reasoning.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717071#Comment_122717071

It's not a combination of both. Nothing to do with DRS.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717071#Comment_122717071

Does doing your part increase recycling numbers? What were you doing with your cans/bottles prior to DRS?

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717202#Comment_122717202

It happened at the same time as DRS though. Producers were forced to change their packaging, add Re-turn symbol and a barcode to multipack items and while they were redesigning their packaging they changed the multipack size from 24 to 18 without reducing the price.

Gary_dunne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717221#Comment_122717221

I'm not getting into the debate of the system, some people are obsessively against it and won't change their opinion, it doesn't bother me all too much.

dxhound2005

"While general inflation has eased many costs for businesses continue to rise,” Greyhound Recycling said in a letter sent to customers late last week. “Factors such as disposal fees, levies, and changes in nationwide recycling processes have all contributed to this increase."

That is what Greyhound are saying. They are putting it down to many costs including disposal fees and levies having increased. That would have been the case before and after DRS anyway. My lot never wrote to me to explain why they increased their charges over the years. So far they have not made any increase since DRS.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717230#Comment_122717230

None of which resulted in a big increase in the CPI. In fact a much smaller increase than in some previous years. Year to September 2022 Soft Drinks up 6.2%. September 2023 up 13.1%. September 2024 up 2.6%.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717258#Comment_122717258

I'd be interested to see what soft drinks are included in the CPI basket. I can find that there are 612 items in the basket but cannot find the actual list.

To counter your point, swiss rolls made the headlines for being taken out of the basket earlier this year. The price of a swiss roll could double and it wouldn't be reflected in the CPI. That doesn't help the individual buying the swiss roll.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717234#Comment_122717234

A private business doesn't have to legally and specifically justify why they increase prices. At best it's just a PR/marketing thing.

An individual who can apply logic to a situation can easily see that if a business losses a portion of its income, that portion of income will need to be made up elsewhere to ensure the business remains viable.

Now, as predicted, a few on here are deflecting from the point that DRS IS leading to higher fees for consumers in bin collection in general with the added bonuses that not all of these costs have been passed on yet as there is apparently discussions going on with the bin companies and various stakeholders on compensatory measures which may or may not lead to anything.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717387#Comment_122717387

They never specify brands. Three items in the category:

1) Soft drink - can/small bottle

(2) Soft drink - large bottle

(3) Energy drinks

There's some other categories potentially affected by this also, one for soft drinks and mixers in pubs; another for mineral water in restaurants.

kippy

The CPI isn't taking into account many of the nuances mentioned here. Multipacks etc aren't allowed for and God knows what else is flying under the radar.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717399#Comment_122717399

Thanks for that. Am I right to think that the price of a 24 can multi pack would never feature in the CPI given those three items?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717438#Comment_122717438

Not unless I've missed something, no.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717421#Comment_122717421

There is nothing on the CPI to say multi packs are not allowed for. Where did you find that out? If I was doing it, I would use the price per litre of say Fanta or Coke. This has to be shown on the shelf, and online. So easy for people to see which is the best deal. Complaints here often pick out the most expensive to have a moan about. This Coke is €3.54 per litre, but in the same shop another package has it at €2 per litre.

https://www.tesco.ie/groceries/en-IE/products/316193333

"Each month, approximately 30 price collectors collect around 10,000 prices directly from shops and other retail outlets. Another 10,000 prices are collected online in the CSO and another 20,000 prices are provided as transaction data by retailers directly to the CSO. In addition to this, 3,000 prices are collected by the Consumer Prices Special Inquiries area using email and telephone inquiries along with additional internet price collection.

Price collectors are given a broad specification for the items they select initially and are required to choose an item that is popular and available. They then have to price the same item month on month. If the item is no longer available, a new comparable item is chosen and priced going forward. This new item is not compared to the item it was replacing. This same methodology is applied to the data collected online and also to the transaction data collected directly from retailers. In this way, the many different choices made by consumers relating to brand, size and point of purchase are reflected."

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717158#Comment_122717158

It is indeed logical that bin companies would seek to recover lost revenues.

However that logic does not necessarily extend to making the customers pay.

The change to DRS is due to legislation.

The consumer has no choice but to pay the deposit and return the container to recoup the deposit.

They have to put up with a degree of inconvenience in order to comply

The bin company increase will see consumers also permanently saddled with a payment for no service.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717485#Comment_122717485

The specification is for an item, not a division of a multi pack of the item; they definitely cannot go for price per litre as that isn't what's in the basket.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717501#Comment_122717501

I don't disagree with any of that.

The logic is that the companies have to recover the losses. I suppose whatever way they find to do that is up to them.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717485#Comment_122717485

I don't see anywhere that goes into the specifics on what is allowed for and what isn't allowed for.

I know with my own eyes that the price per unit on multipacks has increased significantly in the past 8 months or so and that the price of lucozade zero has increased by 10 percent (based on the advertised price on the bottle)

I know that bottles of Coke/orange etc in places like Supervalu are all now well north of 2 euro - I don't have a reference point but my kid tells me they are much more expensive than they were.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122716733#Comment_122716733

Or we pay for it environmentally through an increase in fly tipping, as more people refuse to pay for private waste collection at an increased cost, on top of the increased costs associated with DRS containers.

dxhound2005

Irish Times:

Mon Oct 14 2024 - 06:00

The annual Coastwatch autumn survey has found “a massive reduction” in plastic bottles, aluminium cans and steel tins washing up on Irish shorelines following the introduction of a deposit return scheme earlier this year.

The trend is already clear halfway through this year’s survey being conducted on the island of Ireland by volunteer citizen scientists – 250 surveys have been completed based on 500-metre stretches of coastline – with 239 more due to be undertaken.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717977#Comment_122717977

So where's your proof this is due to the DRS?

You cant have it both ways. Telling everyone on here to provide proof then post this.

There has to be some leeway given for obvious logical conclusions on your side also.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122718112#Comment_122718112

Fair enough. So we won't have any more claims that drinks prices went up because of DRS. Or bin prices. Unless someone can prove it.

CoffeeImpala

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122718219#Comment_122718219

Well taking from your earlier post.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717234#Comment_122717234

What would "changes in nationwide recycling processes have all contributed to this increase" mean? A reasonable interpretation would be that they had to increase prices because people are no longer putting the most valuable items in their recycling bins.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122718219#Comment_122718219

No. The point is I will concede its logical that plastic bottles washing up on shores has reduced due to the DRS if you concede its logical prices of popular soft drinks (not soda water) have increased to pay for the running of Re-Turn. Both without pointless gurning for cast iron proof (which you have been doing more than anyone) that cant be attained.

elperello

Just a few points on the coastal waste.

The claim of a reduction was in this article in the IT written by Kevin O'Sullivan former editor of the paper.

It's based on preliminary results of the 2024 Coastal Survey which is ongoing. The full report will be published later in the year.

Coastwatch has a lot of experience in the area and has been carrying out the surveys since 1987.

https://www.irishtimes.com/environment/2024/10/14/deposit-return-scheme-leads-to-massive-reduction-in-plastic-bottles-and-drinks-containers-found-on-shores-by-coastwatch/

Atlantic Dawn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122718834#Comment_122718834

They state a 'massive reduction' but don't back it up with a single figure to compare the drop from what the figures were compared to the same months last year before the scheme was introduced. I'd need to see figures over 10 years to see a proper comparison, a good summer here, bad summer there will impact on what people dump in the beach much more than the DRS alone.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122718892#Comment_122718892

The full report will be published in due course and should be a interesting read.

Eventually you will get your 10 year figures.

Coastwatch are at this for 37 years so nobody has better long term experience.

bog master

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122719048#Comment_122719048

Ah sure, let's play devils advocate here and ask a hypothetical! As I understand it, it covers all of the Island of Ireland.

If these figures are near enough substantiated, how would one account for the Six Counties or Northern Ireland showing a huge decrease?

kippy

I am not sure who is worse in making such a conclusion. The person who wrote the piece, coast watch or indeed the poster who posted the link.

A n absolute nonsense piece of journalism.

That said. I don't doubt that there may be less plastic bottle and aluminium can litter, however at what cost and where does ot end up anyway.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122719312#Comment_122719312

I reckon Coastwatch knows where the border is after 37 years.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122719347#Comment_122719347

Kevin O'Sullivan is a scholar and a gentleman and Karin Dubsky has done more to promote care of our coastal environment than most.

As for my small contribution, you won't find any errors in what I posted above.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122719481#Comment_122719481

To be fair that group have been calling for a DRS for years now and as I said, I have no doubt that the DRS is leading to less items left lying around the place - we all know the street urchins are keeping the place clean of bottles and cans etc but at what costs.

Any group calling for something for years are gonna want to support whatever they were calling for once its in.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122718834#Comment_122718834

Great. If the numbers are good when the full report is published they shouldn't need as much NGO funding. Divert that to our bin collections to stop the price hikes since we're all doing our bit for a better tomorrow with the DRS. Im sure there are plenty more similar NGOs we could trim the fat off now since the environment is being saved by Re-Turn.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122720379#Comment_122720379

The reporting function is facilitated by volunteers all over the country.

It will continue to collect data no matter whether numbers are good or not.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122720208#Comment_122720208

Quite a few environmental groups supported the introduction of DRS.

Of course it was actually introduced by legislation supported by parties in Dail Eireann on both sides of the house.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122721003#Comment_122721003

Of course it was - you wouldn't expect leglislation to be enacted in any other way surely?

The devil is in the detail however.

DRS is leading to less bottles and cans lying about the place - I have no issues what that general logic.

Question is - where are these bottles and cans ending up? What is happening to support the people who cannot use DRS easily for whatever reason (some examples on this thread), why has the majority of the cost/risk/work been pushed back on the consumer and NOT the organisations that make billions in profit every year? Why isn't there some significant disencentives pushed on the producers of this waste? What are DRS doing about non-compliances? Are there any plans to ensure the bulk users of DRS have an option for bulk returns? What happens with the waste collectors - are people expected to continue to pay in numerous ways for the same thing? There are plenty more questions, and very few answers 6 months later.

purplefields

Incineration.

I was reading earlier today that incinerating plastic is as bad for the environment as burning coal:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp3wxgje5pwo

Plastic bottles should have been phased out. I guess the drinks companies didn't want that to happen, so we have DRS. It is simply prolonging the use of the these plastics. It reminds me of tactics the tobacco industry used.

Anyone promoting this awful scheme should be ashamed.

marvin42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122721833#Comment_122721833

That's the bag we got from a walk around Howth a couple of weeks ago. Still plenty of idiots treating nature as thier Ashtray, but unlike before those who are cleaning after them will get something out of it.

Ashamed? I don't think so 🙂

zell12

Anyone else have an issue with the Aldi Comeragh Springs Sparkling 500ml bottles?

- RVM says 'container not recognised' and re-turn barcode checker says not valid

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122721316#Comment_122721316

the interests of our producers of our goods have become extremely well protected and prioritised, largely due to long term lobbying of our political processes, and its working, its very unlikely policies will be implemented to alter this dynamic, as this potentially could negatively impact their profits and share holder value, so, its always gonna be us the end users that will ultimately pay the price….

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122721316#Comment_122721316

All the questions you mention need to be addressed.

None of them are the responsibility of The Irish Times, Coastwatch or any other NGO.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122722832#Comment_122722832

If Aldi are charging the deposit on bottles that can't be put through the DRS machine you need to take it up with them directly.

It would be useful to copy your complaint to Re-turn also

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122722133#Comment_122722133

You certainly shouldn't be ashamed.

You are cleaning up the environment and collecting a small reward.

A win win situation.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122722911#Comment_122722911

These are the exact type of questions the Irish times need to be asking and attempting to get answers to, rather than publishing some puff pieces for an NGO who dont seem at all concerned about the bigger picture, which may be fair enough as their aim is essentially to watch the coast or something along those lines.

There are numerous media outlets who may or may not be receiving advertising revenue from ReTurn who may be concerned about asking the more difficult questions.

As stated many times on this thread there's literally f all point in any of this if the amounts of the materials continue to increase overall and/or if these items aren't actually being recycled in any case.

Not made with hands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717095#Comment_122717095

Hospitality can get an exemption?

It wasn't being bought to bring home.

Just charge it but don't have to take it back and give the refund IIRC.

It should still have had the logo unless theres an exemption as referenced above.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122723025#Comment_122723025

Hospitality exception is when they don't charge, and take it off you. Only been one place doing that; but I wouldn't eat in places and get cans/bottles *that* often

Not made with hands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122723029#Comment_122723029

As I understand it my local can charge say €6 for a can of cider and no mention of deposit on the receipt or elsewhere.

They still pay the deposit to the wholesaler.

You can either bring the empty can home or leave it on the table.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122723039#Comment_122723039

No.

If they don't charge the deposit you are not meant to take it home. Even if you did, it would have a normal barcode and you'd get the refund you didn't pay for

Not made with hands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122723041#Comment_122723041

They have to absorb or add on the deposit as they pay it at source.

So while you are not paying the deposit directly, it's been added into the overall price.