Fighting between tenants

orcahardking

I have 4 tenants who signed a lease together for a 4 bed house, 2 of them were there previously and 2 new people moved in when the lease was up for renewal. Fast forward 5 months and there is a lot of hostility in the house. 2 want to move out as the other 2 are making it so the other 2 are no longer comfortable in communal spaces. I have personally seen the messages they sent and agree that they sound nasty/aggressive.
is there a way I can legally evict the 2 problem tenants as I don’t want to loose the other 2??

This is not the first time a tenant has left due to the other 2, the same thing happened last year.

Wanderer2010

Deal with the original trouble making twosome rather than constantly having to deal with people leaving because of their behaviour. Tell them to fcuk off when the lease is up as they can't share space like normal humans. Or if they tie you with legality then say since nobody else can live with them you are doubling the rent.

orcahardking

There is 7 months left on the lease and the others want to leave now. Was hoping there would be a way of getting the problem 2 out asap so the others would not leave.

Dav010

Why are you involved?

They have a joint tenancy agreement, and I presume you made them severely liable for the rent, so it’s up to them to sort it out. If you evict two of them, it’s off to the RTB you go and bring your cheque book.

mikemac2

The two aggrieved tenants will leave and the two troublemakers will be liable for the rent for the house. Well they or you will get new tenants but it is for 6-7 months

When the lease is up start afresh. It may even involve a little break of no tenants, perfect for any improvements. If you do not get rid of the two troublemakers you will be dealing with this every few months.

orcahardking

Yes that’s what I thought. Seems like selling up is the only way not to have to deal with this constant rubbish.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122228698#Comment_122228698

On which of legally allowed grounds for ending a tenancy are you advising the op to end the tenancy of 2/all of his/her tenants?

You can’t evict two tenants on the grounds that the other two don’t like them, nor all of them because they are a pain. Though the tenants signed a new lease, there was an existing joint tenancy. They have rights, and LLs are restricted in the reasons that they can end a tenancy. You can’t give a declaration that you are ending a tenancy due to refurbishment/selling, then give the place a lick of paint/make a token effort to sell, the property would have to be offered back to all tenants, or the op risks a large fine from the RTB.

timmyntc

If OP evicts to sell, then sales fall through they must give first refusal to existing tenants. If he only offers to the 2 good tenants (assume one of those is main point of contact for lease?) Then you'd get away with it

Still the risk of bad tenants over holding and refusing to pay though

Hontou

It sounds to me like the controlling tenants are harrassing the others. You can get them out for anti-social behaviour. According to the RTB, anti-social behaviour =

• constitutes the commission of an offence that is reasonably likely to directly affect the well-being or welfare of others;
• causes (or could cause) fear, danger, injury, damage or loss to any person living, working or otherwise lawfully in the dwelling concerned or its vicinity, including violence, intimidation, coercion, harassment or obstruction of or threats to any such person

https://www.rtb.ie/images/uploads/forms/Notice_of_Termination_-_Serious_anti-social_behaviour_7_day_notice_1012-23.docx#:~:text=Visit%20www.rtb.ie%20for,how%20to%20terminate%20a%20tenancy.&text=A%20landlord%20can%20terminate%20a,that%20the%20tenant%20must%20vacate.

MakersMark

You're about to find out that you have no control over your property.

Your good tenants will leave. They wont pay you any more rent

The bad ones will stay, they won't pay you the difference.

The lease means nothing, you're tenants will have acquired Part IV tenancy by then.

The lease has actually screwed you, as you can't evict them now.

If you had no lease, you could have kicked them out in the first 5 months.

Welcome to Irelands anti landlord system!

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122228699#Comment_122228699

Only a few people in this thread have given appropriate and correct advice, most have given incorrect, likely illegal advice or at least advice that shows they don't know what the laws and rights of tenants are. You say the lease is due to end, but is the tenancy? You say 5mths like it is the first 5 mths and which I believe some posters have read as so, but the wording in you OP suggests the original lease (and as such the Tenancy created has been longer that that).

Whats worse about this is you seem to be somewhat clueless about the process and think it may be easy to recover your property (that may vary with location, but anywhere could be a problem given the state of the housing sector).

My suggestion is stay out of the interpersonal stuff between tenants (reading texts and so forth, even if the tenants you think are being nasty etc, so what? if the other people leave, so be it, thats what they are going to do). As mentioned, you cant evict other people for not getting on. If they go, let them go, I would discuss it impartially with the other tenants and mention they will have to either get other people in or pay the full rent or move out themselves and leave it at that (that may make them realise/remind them they are severally liable for the rent and need to get on with people, unless they are renting rooms? which may help your situation, but likely not).

If they stop paying full rent, then speak to the tenants and tell them they will have to leave if they don't pay the full rent (if you were renting rooms this may not be a favourable situation, but if the lease is for everyone then they are likely to be severally liable for rent). If you are very lucky they may just leave.

If not, then you would have to go through the process set by the RTB, and possibly be able to initiate an eviction, on those legitimate grounds. I'd check the steps as it's likely to have changed since I got out of being a landlord.

The only way to avoid that nonsense is don't get involved in personal stuff with tenants, have a lease that makes people severally liable, dont have anything to do with rentals.

While I agree that selling up is a good idea (as imo small time private landlords are merely agents to provide accommodation, not make an ongoing, ie any profit month to month and then pass on taxes to the State coffers and then not allowed to recover the property to realise any gain from the investment of time, effort and money).

Funny (laughable) that you seem a bit oblivious, when you say the best thing to do is sell up, yeh, but have completely disregarded the part about recovering your property so you can sell. location may be a factor in your favour or against it.

Claw Hammer

Just because the lease expire doesn't mean you can ask anybody to leave. After 6 months the tenancy is part 4and so can only be terminated on the allowed grounds. If you didn't already know this, you should sell the property.

orcahardking

Yes I am fully aware of the limited circumstances re eviction I was just hoping there might be a loophole I wasn’t aware off. This is why I feel serving them the required notice - 6 months with proper paperwork to RTB etc and selling really is the only way forward as a constant stream of new tenants is not something I’m keen on.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122231709#Comment_122231709

When two of the original tenants left you agreed to a change/update in the tenancy agreement by accepting two new individuals as tenants onto the existing lease. As a landlord, you did not have to agree to that, the remaining two were liable for the entire rent or the departing two could have assigned their interest in the lease - with your permission. Who found the replacements?

In any event, now the new/replacement tenants are there 5 months, but they have not gained part4 rights yet.

Part4 rights are individual and 'belong' to the tenant, not the property, and they are effective after 6 months occupancy so those two new tenants must be in occupation for 6 months before they acquire their own part4 rights.

See S.50(3):

3) Any person who the landlord accepts as a tenant of a dwelling on, or subsequent to, a Part 4 tenancy coming into existence in respect of it, shall, on his or her having been in occupation of the dwelling for a continuous period of 6 months (and that tenancy still subsists), benefit from the protection of that tenancy; accordingly, the rights, restrictions and obligations under this Part shall, on and from the expiry of that period of 6 months, apply in relation to that person as they apply in relation to the multiple tenant whose continuous occupation gave rise to the Part 4 tenancy's existence.

Notice can be given before 6 months without giving a reason or without reference to the allowable reasons required under a part4 tenancy. Notice must be 90 days for a tenancy of less than 6 months and comply with all the other requirements for a valid NoT.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122228497#Comment_122228497

Just because all four tenants (2 original + 2 replacements) signed a new lease for a year doesn't actually mean there is 7 months left. The two original tenants have part4 rights so 12 month leases don't apply to them. The two replacement tenants will gain their own part4 rights after 6 months occupation and from then on will be on an equal footing with the original two in terms of notice periods, rent increases, etc.

If the two replacements want to leave, they can because they are there less than 6 months but then you are back to square one, the original two are liable for the entire rent.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122237696#Comment_122237696

You seem to be ignoring the fact that all four have a signed, fixed term lease for 12 months. Even if the new tenants don’t have part 4 rights, the op can’t serve notice to any of the four tenants until the end of the fixed term, by which time of course there will be no doubt as to whether they have Part 4 rights.

It is important for you to understand, fixed term leases can give tenants, and LLs rights in addition to Part 4 rights, most pertinently in the op’s case, security of tenure for the duration of the fixed term. The benefit the op gets is that the tenants are liable for payment of the rent for the duration of the term, unless they assign their interest in the lease to another tenant.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122237999#Comment_122237999

Yes you are correct, I forgot about the rights under a F/T lease. It seems odd why any owner would sign a 12 month contract with the current regulations, as it makes the 6 month wait/probation period redundant, guarantees part4 rights for tenants, imposes longer notice periods on owners, and doesn't guarantee rent will be paid.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122237999#Comment_122237999

If tenants break a fixed term it is virtually impossible for the landlord to get any further rent. The RTB takes the view that the landlord must limit his loss and re-let the property and given the strong rental market, that should not take long. That is in addition to the practical difficulty in finding the old tenants and executing any order for payment against them. Tenants can go when they like. The only thing the O/P can do is let the complaining tenants go and refuse to allow any replacements. The remaining tenants will then have to pay double rent. When they default, the o/p can serve a warning letter followed by notice on them.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241727#Comment_122241727

Then sit back and wait, having made matters worse by refusing new tenants and making the two remaining tenants pay double, they may well overhold, stop paying rent, and wait for the op to exhaust the RTB/Court process.

What’s the point of making it harder for them to pay the rent? If they are in any way clued in, they will know they can stop paying rent today and it could take the op up to two years to get vacant possession.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122242059#Comment_122242059

Where are you getting two years from?