EU to impose multibillion-euro tariffs on Chinese electric cars (thread bans see post #1)

Gumbo

Pure and simple. The Dacia is crap.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122253604#Comment_122253604

They aren't though since if they were they would be set at rates determined by the amount of Chinese subsidy they have received.

What they are set is based upon an arbitrary "cooperation with the investigation" basis so the rates are actually set as a punishment.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122254769#Comment_122254769

Not sure I follow, the investigation in to state subsidies for Chinese produced cars has not imposed tariffs on Chinese produced components used in EU manufacturing. That would be a separate investigation and action.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122254824#Comment_122254824

The EU investigation into Chinese state subsidy for EVs has found that there is. Consequently tarrifs will be applied to "level the playing field". That is the theory, that the price after tariffs would be the fair market price if there was no subsidy.

The EU has however set the tariffs at a level based not on what the fair market price of the cars would be, but based on an arbitrary "level of cooperation". This makes the tariffs a punishment.

They haven't set tariffs on components because too many EU companies are wholly dependent on chinese batteries and Chinese technology.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122254484#Comment_122254484

They're doing far better than most countries on that front.

About half of China's power is renewable.

wassie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122254634#Comment_122254634

Obviously China predominantly at the present time, hence your question. But that is changing fairly quickly in both the EU & US.

Reports from the European Federation for Transport and Environment suggest that if planned gigafactories go ahead, then there is the potential for Europe to become self-sufficient in battery production by 2026.

https://www.transportenvironment.org/topics/batteries

It wont however be without its challenges, especially as it needs to be sustainable otherwise may as well keep relying on China.

MacronvFrugals

Doesent seem to much of an issue for BYD


"Shares of Warren Buffett-backed BYD jump after EU unveils lower than expected tariff
Stock of Tesla’s China rival rises as much as 9% following Brussels’ announcement of electric vehicle import duties"

https://www.ft.com/content/ede8929d-d2df-4730-bfa8-f9632075d72c

wassie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122254973#Comment_122254973

All depends in what measure you are using.

On percentages they look great.

Total output CO2…..not so good.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122254875#Comment_122254875

The anti-subsidy investigation was into imports of passenger BEVs from China. It's not surprising that a different trade good did not have tariff's applied as part of the investigation. Trade defence investigations are limited in scope and apply to the product(s) being investigated. There is also an ongoing investigation into Chinese made Multilayered Wood Flooring, would you also see that as failing due to its lack of tariffs on automotive parts?

The details of the investigation followed a detailed assessment of subsidisation for BYD, Geely and SAIC with a duty tied to assessed level of subsidisation. There are then two general tariffs (21% and 38.1%) to be applied to companies that either co-operate with assessment (i.e. file paperwork) or ignore it. Companies who were not sampled as part of the investigation can request an individualised assessment and will be given a direct tariff. Tesla have requested this for their made in China vehicles.

djan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122255079#Comment_122255079

Self-sufficient but at what cost to the consumer? All this could just lead to the postponement of the ICE bans as EU manufacturers will go bankrupt if China decides to return the favour to all the EU companies it supplies, evident by Germany being against this. The EU relies on China by a magnitude lot more than the other way around so could be a case of playing with fire.

Sure Ireland is no stranger to in essence government funding with various individual tax incentives to big tech and pharma companies.

wassie

Maybe, but that's mere speculation and I have no idea how this plays out. There are plenty of other posters here who are better equipped to forecast this than myself.

All I know is that if companies are prepared to spend large sums building these gigafactories in the EU, I think its safe to assume they believe they can generate enough revenue to provide a sufficient return on investment. That ultimately relies on consumers buying EVs. Time will tell I guess.

Sure Ireland is no stranger to in essence government funding with various individual tax incentives to big tech and pharma companies.

It's not a direct comparison as Ireland doesn't own these companies. Its aim is not about protecting an industry or fair trade, it's about attracting investment. They can up and leave anytime.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122255118#Comment_122255118

Workshop of the world.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122255192#Comment_122255192

This trade investigation was conveniently limited in scope because the commission know that European ev manufacturing is heavily reliant on Chinese battery exports. It makes no sense to target only completed cars when it's ultimately constituent components, which are subsidised.

This is not about fair trade, it's protectionism.

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122255118#Comment_122255118

50% is a big figure.

5.934 trillion kWh is also a big figure (annual energy used by China).

2.967 trillion kWh is also a pretty significant number.

John arse

Saw Ursula in Tesla sandyford yesterday!!!,🚗🚗🚗

John arse

This won't apply in Brexitland I take it?

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122255475#Comment_122255475

It always amazes me that people see a standard process not being excepted as some kind of conspiracy. Trade defence investigations are always limited to a scope of goods, just because you want it to be something different doesn't make it the case.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122254484#Comment_122254484

china actually have a really good energy mix with lots of Renewables

Detritus70

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122254637#Comment_122254637

We have one. It's a great little runaround.

For the money in that segment it had the best range when compared to others. You shouldn't expect an Etron obviously but I genuinely enjoy it.

If you just want An Car, this is great.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122256056#Comment_122256056

I can respect your decision to buy one.
Safe driving.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122250341#Comment_122250341

Who is behind that?

Detritus70

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122256150#Comment_122256150

We even have two, a Spring and a Lodgy. Before that a Duster at some point.

Dacia are such anti cars, I love 'em.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249264#Comment_122249264

" Ultimately the importance of European car industry and geopolitics trumps electric cars"

Absolutely, electric cars are not worth the European car industry ! battery production isn't environmentally friendly and they won't save the earth either way so it's a very wise and sensible move.

What would be good for the Irish Government to do is to encourage more 1 person modes of transport, instead of big heavy SUV, The E.U need to encourage the Car manufacturers to make more single person vehicles and improve public transport to encourage people not to take the car etc.

We got too many cars clogging up the streets and electric cars won't do anything to solve this.

Electric cars are the Easy way out for the Government to lower emissions…….

wassie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122256323#Comment_122256323

Dacia are such anti cars, I love 'em.

😁

Gold!

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122254973#Comment_122254973

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122255856#Comment_122255856

China is expected to add 200 GW of coal fired power by the end of the decade.

I think you are getting blinded by China's announcements about additional renewables 'capacity' being added and forgetting that the poor capacity factor of renewables means that the actual amount of energy generated from them isn't very impressive.

In 2023, 3% of their power came from Solar and 9% from wind and 13% from hydro. So only 25% from renewbles, not 50%.

70% of Chinas electricity comes from coal.

https://climateenergyfinance.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/MONTHLY-CHINA-ENERGY-UPDATE-_-2023-China-Electricity-Mix-Yearly-Review-1-1.pdf

Montage of Feck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122253405#Comment_122253405

The greens ruined my life a green councillor got with my ex wife.*

*May not be true

Detritus70

IMO China is a monster that the West created in large parts.
Companies couldn't resist the lure of manufacturing their stuff for a fraction of the price, getting rid of large and costly manufacturing facilities, thousands of employees, no more worries about all that environmental or health and safety nonsense and being nice to the little consumer by passing the savings on to them absolutely creaming it especially with the monstrous price gouging in recent years so fat, useless moneybags could throw a few more billion on the pile.

They must have seen it coming that the Chinese won't forever be just their cheapo manufacturing facility and that soon enough they would start coming up with their own ideas. And boy howdy did they ever.
Excuse me while my heart bleeds for western capitalists that caused wage dumping and the annihilation of manufacturing in Western countries and now they want protectionism back and for what? For us, the consumer?

That take is laughable. We unleashed this dragon and now we have a battle on our hands. Does the West want to keep exporting to a market of billions? Then accept their goods with a minimum of fuss. Do we want to protect our industry? Then shut down China and risk losing billions in trade.
And if we go the protectionist route, will Western capitalism have learnt from that? O purlease! They will then realise they have a captive market and they can charge what they want. Think Ireland in the 90s. A consumer goods desert with little choice and prices 20-50% higher than mainland Europe.

I can't take the whining about those dastardly Chinese taken our jobs from Western governments and industry seriously, it has all been done by them to make their already rich shareholders even richer. We're here due to our own greed and shortsightedness.

PS: NONE of this has got anything to do with any Green policies. That's just garnish.

moonage

These tariffs show what the EU really believes about the supposed climate "emergency" and the apparent existential threat it creates.

They want to ban ICE cars and force us into EVs to avert the "crisis", yet when affordable EVs come along rather than seeing it as a blessing they make them a lot more expensive for the common person.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122262834#Comment_122262834

Well that's one way to look at it but highly subsidized foreign imports could put native EU manufacturers at a massive disadvantage in the EU. This would have implications on security, jobs and future development.

Exiled Rebel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122255546#Comment_122255546

They are obliged to follow suit as part of the deal.

Basically if the EU says jump the UK asks how high.