EU to impose multibillion-euro tariffs on Chinese electric cars (thread bans see post #1)

positron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122686332#Comment_122686332

I doubt if China will retaliate with their own tariffs. I get a feel that China operates differently to the West and it's, lets call it "Trumpian" way of reacting to adversities - you know, emotional, populist, us vs them and "in your face because I am the man" type approach. The fact that China can respond in a cold and non-populist way, is probably a "benefit" of their monopolistic one-party system perhaps? They probably will quietly get back to work, plough more funds into building even more factories in Europe, learn and improve from the process and eventually own the entire motor industry anyway.

blackbox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122686332#Comment_122686332

Some of these "foreign" companies have factories in China. I.e. the cars are locally made but a foreign brand.

There would be no tariff on Chinese branded cars manufactured in the EU.

celtic_oz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122696922#Comment_122696922

or maybe just start with tarrifs on small things like brandy and dairy to show the EU that two can play at that game

China has imposed taxes on imports of European brandy in a move that France has said is retaliation for recent big tariffs the EU announced on Chinese electric vehicles.

The European Commission said it would challenge China's tax at the World Trade Organization (WTO), calling it an "abuse" of trade defence measures.

But China said the move was an "anti-dumping" measure that would protect its domestic producers.

French brandy producers said the duties, which will hit big brands including Hennessy and Remy Martin, would be "catastrophic" for the industry.

The Irish dairy industry is set to be caught in a brewing trade row between the European Union and China. Chinese authorities announced overnight that they have have opened an anti-subsidy investigation into imported dairy products from the EU. The move appears to be a tit-for-tat response to a move by the EU to restrict electric vehicles from China.

celtic_oz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122696992#Comment_122696992

There is still plenty imported to retaliate if they want. The numbers are less than below but still substantial.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122699310#Comment_122699310

Apparently Ireland and France were 2 countries that backed the EU tarrifs. You reap what you sew I guess

Not sure why we voted for it, we have no national car manufacturer and a depressing figure in EV sales

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-41490794.html

celtic_oz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122702409#Comment_122702409

its mad .. even the Germans didnt vote for it!

https://youtu.be/u9hYzEnhoZo?si=khjMaRmpMkn0MqYI&t=95

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122709235#Comment_122709235

No one was surprised at all that the German government was lobbied by German automakers who are the most exposed to manufacturing cars in China, and then voted against a measure that would increase the cost of them manufacturing cars in China and bringing them back to the EU.

The tariff moves were largely seen to be pushed by French manufacturers who have much less Chinese manufacturing.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122702409#Comment_122702409

I imagine it was due to lobbying from SIMI where the incumbent importers want to block any new entrants disrupting the business model.

celtic_oz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122709267#Comment_122709267

Dunno its hard to believe .. the farming lobby would have a lot more pull and a lot more to lose. Smacks of quid pro quo with other EU countries favours on other voting issues.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122250341#Comment_122250341

not really; the retaliatory tariffs will probably hurt MB and BMW (less so VW) more than any EU market benefit.

893bet

any chance of these getting delayed?

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122341800#Comment_122341800

Not if they have already been imported

Into EU and are being held in advance of sale. I would expect, from Media reports, that there is quite a large inventory of pre-tariff cars.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122349346#Comment_122349346

you are correct here and the only things held in bond are ones where duty definitely applies. Where, like cars, there was no prior duty, they were simply imported and held for eventual sale. Plenty of reports of the stocks which are held in EU which are unsold.

Exiled Rebel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122710103#Comment_122710103

I would be shocked if Tesla had stockpiled right hand drive model 3's in the EU with little to no notice. In fact I would be shocked if they had a significant number of left hand drives stockpiled in the EU.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122709267#Comment_122709267

Private interests over public good... Sounds about right sadly

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122710158#Comment_122710158

I don’t think I mentioned Tesla specifically. Here are the reports from April which identified the backlogs at European ports. Some of this might be bad business planning (as the report suggests), some of it may have been stock-piling in advance of tariffs. My point remains valid that it is not necessarily the case that the tariffs would have an immediate price effect. As regards Tesla, the tariff was set at c.7% so unlikely to have the same effect as those where it was set at 35-45%.

Exiled Rebel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122711523#Comment_122711523

You replied to a post specifically referencing the model 3.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122711539#Comment_122711539

indeed but I did not say that there were loads of pre-imported Model 3s around although there might very well be!

Exiled Rebel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122711549#Comment_122711549

I don't care about other makes. I was making the point specifically in relation to model 3's which you responded to. Tesla don't stockpile cars, they literally build the M3 in China, stick them on a ship and enroute allocate to buyers. What MG or BYD I couldn't care less as my point fixated on one particular model of car.

…and if there was a stockpile it's only a matter of time before the stockpile is gone. These tariffs will be in place for a minimum of 5 years.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122711590#Comment_122711590

many, many apologies, I hadn’t realised that I had to tailor my contributions solely for your areas of interest. In future, I shall prepare drafts for your approval.

celtic_oz

Controversial!

https://youtu.be/_4m6XUIfgXA?si=zRzcLmyx9Yo7dbrf

DrPsychia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122726809#Comment_122726809

He loves sucking up to the CCP for some reason. He tried to strike deals with the CCP to buy various Greek infrastructure like railways, ports, to expand their Silk Road project, which would have employed more Chinese people in Greece at a time when Greek unemployment was high. I understand his point about EV's and Solar panels, however, Europe need to protect its manufacturing industry. There is no next big thing on the horizon that will employ the millions of people, jobs will be lost if Europe allows China to flood it with its cheap cars/solar panels. Europe can't compete on labour costs, energy, or raw materials cost. I would sacrifice the EV transition to project jobs

djan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728227#Comment_122728227

I wonder if this approach to protecting the EU industry is a bit short-sighted. By artificially propping the sector, this will slow down innovation as companies who should be failing are held up. This in the long-term will set us even further back than we are now. Closing the EU for trade is not a good idea especially given the current socioeconomic consequences of an aging population.

celtic_oz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728227#Comment_122728227

, however, Europe need to protect its manufacturing industry. 

agreed, but not at the expense of the consumer and the climate ( a policy that the EU were so adamant about only a few months ago ) and also risking a full on trade war with China?

Solution could be

1. No tarrifs of Chinese EV's
2. Create a general EU fund to allow governments to charge No VAT and increase subsidies on EU made EVs to make them competitive

Would cost a lot but EV's would fly off the shelves at half the price and the EU reliance on oil would diminish over time

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728270#Comment_122728270

"but not at the expense of the consumer and the "climate"

https://media.giphy.com/media/Pgp4eR2qugAlYsEt4e/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e4789x2ymzmqbyniua15xef57ub7uqkpqzmaswv93er&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

DrPsychia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728264#Comment_122728264

How can companies innovate to lower workers wages(more automation is one way, but still need people do assembly work), workers rights, environmental regulations, materials costs?

China is lucky to have an abundance of rare earth metals, Europe isn't so lucky. China is well known for its poor workers rights(9-9-6) and trying to keep wages low. Europe is known for workers rights, good incomes, allowing unions to engage in collective bargaining.

If the EU, for example, allows the automotive industry to fail and move almost entirely to China, the social and economic cost of that would be devastating. For those effected, Increased poverty, child neglect/abuse, suicide, drug abuse, mortality increase, lower health and lifespans, increased social welfare costs.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728270#Comment_122728270

'no VAT, no tariffs, increased subsidies'. How do you propose that member states fund this central fund? Tax the Billionaires and mega wealthy? I'm all for it.

Italy is racing to plug a 7bn hole is it's budget, Germany's manufacturing industry is in crisis, Spain is Spain, Ireland continues to waste colossal sums of money while infrastructure is rather poor given our relatively high GNI*. Then we have the looming threat of Russia possibly invading a NATO state so member states will need to boost military expenditure to decrease reliance on the US, especially if the crazies elect Trump.

The only reason China's car industry has exploded is thanks to IP theft and the ease of manufacturing EV's compared to ICE. If you manufacture parts in China, have assembly lines there, your plans, products, and processes will be copied. That's just how it is. The laws we enjoy in developed western countries to protect investment do not apply in China.

celtic_oz

'no VAT, no tariffs, increased subsidies'. How do you propose that member states fund this central fund? Tax the Billionaires and mega wealthy? I'm all for it.

irrespective of how its paid for, the alternative of full on trade war with China could cost more.

The only reason China's car industry has exploded is thanks to IP theft and the ease of manufacturing EV's compared to ICE. If you manufacture parts in China, have assembly lines there, your plans, products, and processes will be copied. That's just how it is. The laws we enjoy in developed western countries to protect investment do not apply in China.

Industrial espionage goes on everywhere, you can be guaranteed everyone will be copying Chinese methods of manufacturing EVs if theres a buck in it.

and the ease of manufacturing EV's compared to ICE.

The ease ?? Why cant Europe / USA just copy them so.. the Chinese sunk quarter of trillion dollars in to build up their EV industry while the 'Western automakers and governments have dilly dallied'. China played the long game while most western companies cant see past thier next earnings report - just ask Herbert Deiss.

The narrative of painting China as the evil enemy will gather speed while Europe panders to the US, as Kissinger said "it may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." The USA just passed a $1.6 billion bill to deliver anti-China propaganda overseas .. be carefull what you read.

freddieot

This country has always done well being America's friend. I'm not sure China would care if the whole island sank into the sea.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122729322#Comment_122729322

I don't think anybody would disagree with you but I'm not sure we should be trying to antagonize China either. There's already import duties on all products from China, there's no justifiable reason to add more tariffs specifically to electric vehicles in the middle of a climate crisis

Take MG for example, there's more tax on an MG3 Hybrid-Petrol or a HS PHEV-Petrol than there is to a ZS, 4 or 5 despite them being miles better for the environment

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122728462#Comment_122728462

'no VAT, no tariffs, increased subsidies'. How do you propose that member states fund this central fund? Tax the Billionaires and mega wealthy? I'm all for it.

I think this answer is staring us in the face on this one, EU nations will likely get a haul from these new duties. I presume the member states are free to spend the money as they please? Member states should be forced to subsidise EVs with this windfall

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122732022#Comment_122732022

I don't believe that the intention is to antagonise China. It's simply a countervailing measure to balance the unfair state indulged, sponsored and financially subsidised motor industry in China.

It's not anything new. Our own Revenue already have options for imposing countervailing duties, rarely if ever imposed as I understand it but exists nevertheless.

The basis of fair trade is fairness. If a state supports a particular industry, importantly an exporting industry, as they do in China, then some form of countervailing is required to keep balance.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122732566#Comment_122732566

Considering China is talking about similar measures against Ireland, Spain and France with taxes on subsidised milk, chorizo and cognac I'd say antagonising China might be the result even if it wasn't the intention

Interestingly China has already had an investigation against French cognac, found that it was state subsidised in the same way EVs were in China but decided not to impose tarrifs at the time. We will see how much that changes

https://www.voanews.com/a/europe-braces-for-chinese-retaliation-over-ev-import-tariffs-/7813804.html

djan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122732566#Comment_122732566

I think it's important to note the various state and EU level subsidies that Irish agriculture gets given their massive export numbers alongside benefits for tech MNCs. The EU doesn't operate fair trade either and we should consider that before starting trade wars with an entity we are reliant on while they are not.

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122733507#Comment_122733507

Fair comment, but there is state support and then STATE SUPPORT.

A quick look around chez moi and I see a heck of a lot of things that say Made in China. I'm sure it's true for anywhere in the EU. Not sure who would really lose out long term in a trade war. I suppose China might not care anyway. They not doubt get plenty of revenue from their exports to Russia, North Korea and their other friends in Iran and elsewhere.

Back to my original point, China has never been a friend to Ireland the way America has and continues to be to this day.

893bet

Are these going on this week so?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122777788#Comment_122777788

All EVs imported from midnight tonight is my understanding and the oil industry is delighted as you can imagine

Rates are

• BYD 17%
• Geely 18.8%
• SIAC (MG and Maxus) 35.3%
• Tesla 7.8%
• Others, including European makes manufacturing in China, 20.7%

The above is not inclusive of the 10% duty that already applies to all cars, this is only the increase

weisses

We are to dependent on China for almost everything ... Europe need to become self sufficient.

DrPsychia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122778176#Comment_122778176

I'm all for electrification, but what other options should Europe deploy to combat cheaper Chinese cars? Quality/tech isn't really a selling point for European manufacturers anymore because the Chinese have caught up, or surpassed. European manufacturers can't compete due to higher cost of doing business.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122779937#Comment_122779937

Why exactly are we trying to combat cheaper EVs at all? Do we not want to eventually have all petrol and diesel cars off the road?

Martin32

How will this impact current cars on order which have not been delivered yet ?

DrPsychia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122780152#Comment_122780152

It has been said many times already. To protect jobs. The economic and social shock would be huge if European manufacturers were allowed to fail, balance of trade etc.

Volkswagen management are also to blame for this. they shouldn’t have paid out €4 billion in dividend to shareholders last year, Instead they should have invested in innovation, their supply and software.

If Europe was like Australia, with no car manufacturing industry, I'd be all for super cheap EVs, open the flood gates.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122780170#Comment_122780170

Expect to pay more. It’s in the T&C’s of the contract that local taxes and levies may be subject to change.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122780649#Comment_122780649

Ok and why does this same policy not apply to other Chinese products such as phones or even ICE cars?

If we want people to change from ICE to EVs this is a step backwards

wassie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122780649#Comment_122780649

If Europe was like Australia, with no car manufacturing industry, I'd be all for super cheap EVs, open the flood gates.

Your not wrong on your comment on the Aussie market - theres a dozen Chinese brands slated to enter there next year. This will mean there are over 60 brands of cars available there.

Australia makes a good market for testing exports with Asian brands given their geographical proximity and regulatory setups. Also the cars will be RHD which is positive for Ireland/UK.

https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/which-chinese-car-brands-are-coming-to-australia-in-2024-and-2025

DrPsychia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122781157#Comment_122781157

Because we don't manufacture smartphones in Europe. There was never a chinese brand that exported popular ICE cars to Europe in numbers worth mentioning, maybe some vans and pickup trucks but not common cars.

Applying tariffs to a broad spectrum of Chinese products would cause an all out trade war with devastating consequences for Europe. It would hurt everybody, not only those who want cheap EVs.

There's roughly 2.4 million people directly employed in the automotive manufacturing industry in Europe. I don't know how many of those are involved in EV/everyday ICE production but electrification is progressing, albeit at a slower rate now. People's welfare and livelyhoods should be prioritised before cheap EVs in my opinion

Exiled Rebel

No update on the Tesla website today. The price of an M3 is the same as it was yesterday. Be a bit of pain in the hope if you were to be stung for an extra 7.8%.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122781461#Comment_122781461

I'd say most of those 2.4m jobs that are going to be given greater protections by this are either in the industry of expensive EV makers or ICE car makers. Should we really be giving protection to these industries at the expense of our climate?

Electrification might still be progressing, but at a much slower scale than we need it to, and it's only a matter of time before it starts declining again if our govt keep pulling stunts like this

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122782202#Comment_122782202

I know Tesla dropped prices a few months ago, that might be having an impact

DrPsychia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122782384#Comment_122782384

I don't have a straightforward answer, it's complex, nuanced, and I'm far from an expert so be mindful of that.

As people get poorer due to increased job losses, emissions tend to rise because those affected seek cheaper means of living. People would no longer be able to upgrade their homes to be more energy efficient, no longer be able to afford more domestically manufactured/locally sourced goods, and seek to source cheaper goods from the likes of China which increases shipping demands, further polluting our oceans and increasing emissions. They'll be less able to shop more environmentally friendly options because it can be more expensive. Due to lower incomes, the purchasing of more low quality/single use goods becomes more widespread, increasing waste. People would try to source cheaper sources of food from international markets, so there would be more political pressure to source more beef for example from Brazil, increasing the pace of amazon deforestation.

Opening the flood gates to Chinese EVs at the expense of our own industry increases long distance shipping demands. Then you have to consider the energy sources used in the manufacturing process. China still uses a lot of coal despite their increasing solar output. It also gives the CCP more power, which is bad in my opinion, making Europe less resourceful and more vulnerable diplomatically because the balance of trade would be tipped even further in China's favor.
China's primary source of energy production is Coal, amounting to ~69%. - Source
In Europe, coal amounts to a mere ~16% of energy production. - Source
Coal is obviously the worst source, and the high usage in China in the production of EVs doesn't help our climate.

I won't repeat what I said before about the social impact due to job losses if the industry is allowed to fail, or suffer severe downsizing due to political inaction, but the importance of maintaining social stability by protecting jobs should not be overlooked.

There are lots of talking points I'm omitting for the sake of time, which I believe are important to consider(ex: environmental cost/benefit analysis of cheap Chinese imports and their uptake in Europe). Green energy investments such as Fusion, Nuclear, Solar. Nuclear energy is by far the cleanest source of energy we are technologically capable of currently, and would have by far the largest impact, decreasing global emissions by orders of magnitude. The lack of widespread nuclear investment is borderline criminal and illogical in my opinion. I also believe that far more funding should be poured into fusion research.

So to answer your question partly;
Yes I think these domestic industries should be protected, but I don't believe it will impact our climate negatively like you think it will.
I could be wrong though, I'm open to change my mind.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122783683#Comment_122783683

I'm inclined to agree with you mostly

Not sure if wind, hydro and solar have fewer carbon emissions than nuclear mind but certainly nuclear as a primary source has served the likes of France very well from the POV of energy security.

When you speak of job losses, 2.1m people was the figure given earlier, 0.6% of the EU total and not all of which would be lost, shouldn't cause a complete meltdown in the wider EU economy. Important to remember, Germany, which would employ a large percentage of that 2.1m voted against the plan for extra duties

The biggest scam ever, in my mind, is that lower and zero emissions products are cheaper than higher emissions ones.

Buying beef from your local farmer should be a fraction of the cost of buying it from a farmer in Brazil who then has to ship it half way across the world to you. Similarly filling an EV from electricity generated from wind should be miles cheaper than filling a car with petrol which was dug up in the middle east, put on a ship, transported to a refinery, refined, transported to your local filling station and is finally pumped, using electricity, into your car

While I digress on the big scam, if we can fix that we would be on to a winner, and taxing EVs isn't the way to do that

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122702409#Comment_122702409

Because our Politicians are stupid.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795939#Comment_122795939

Because we, the people voted to be part of Europe/EU and all that.

It’s the same for building regulations, carbon use, sustainable products in buildings, all EU led and we have to alter our nation regulations to suit the EU drive to reduce carbon emissions.

This tarrif is about protecting EU jobs and economy whether we agree with it or not.

It ain’t about “stupid” politicians.