Aer Lingus Flight Crew Industrial relations thread 2024

lintdrummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122295455#Comment_122295455

First of all, over a good chunk of that period pilot pay was reduced to 50% so the increments weren't even a factor. As has been explained before: almost all airlines in the world pay their pilots on an incremental scale based on length of service. It's a specialised job with a shortage of qualified people to do it. The airlines want to retain any pilots they get and the incremental scale is used as a method to promote longevity by rewarding it. So yes, the pay rise being sought would be applied to all points on the scale.

Perhaps it's difficult to imagine if you're employed on a fixed salary and you have to negotiate a pay rise for yourself every year, so another way to look at it: pilots moving up the pay scale is akin to moving up a grade in their job. First officers undergo training annually to prepare them for command. They must pass some fairly onerous tests to eventually earn the 4th stripe and take up command, that moves them onto a better scale. It's a simple fact that pilots with more experience are likely to be better at their job and they are rewarded for that experience by moving up the scale.

Now, a scale devised 30 years ago is all well and good in 1990's Ireland, but the value of that scale deteriorates over time. If percentage increases are not applied across the entire scale at regular intervals, it becomes unattractive and the airline will struggle to attract pilots. I've seen people here talk about how there aren't many options for Irish pilots to work in Ireland so what are EI pilots complaining about, where else will they go, and to an extent there is truth to that. But I can tell you that Aer Lingus has grown to a point where it absolutely relies on attracting pilots from outside Ireland to maintain it's operation. There are numerous pilots from the UK, France, Spain, Italy, Germany, The Netherlands etc. flying at Aer Lingus these days. There simply aren't enough suitably qualified Irish pilots to keep up with Aer Lingus' growth. So now you have to consider being competitive enough to attract pilots from abroad, who will need to move to a country that is likely far more expensive than their home to live in. Many indeed commute because Dublin is too expensive to live in.

I'm not sure whether it was you or another poster who said the same thing a few days ago about how this industrial action shouldn't be the first step. Either way, you're clearly not up to speed on the full story here: IALPA and Aer Lingus have been in negotiations for over 22 months now. They had actually started discussions in 2019 but that dragged into 2020 and Covid put a halt to it. But it's been 22 months now of continuous negotiation and no resolution. They have gone through their own regular process of mediation, which after months of talks recommended another mediator which failed to produce an agreement so the parties ended up in the WRC which failed to produce agreement and then the parties went to the Labour Court which produced an interim recommendation that recommended further mediation. So this is by no measure "the first step". They've been talking for 5 years and intensively for 22 months.

knobtasticus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122295457#Comment_122295457

@Captain_Crash Has already partially addressed this but that article (and indeed the interview itself which the article is an accurate transcript of) is a perfect example of why a vested interest should always have its assertions fact-checked (including IALPA).

There are 20+ steps on the EI pilot pay scale with pilots spread out across those steps depending on recruitment year. It isn’t possible to ‘group’ pilots into just 4 tranches and have the numbers be even remotely representative of the truth. It’s useful to consider the per-pilot salary cost to the company - many have retired off the top of scale over the last few years and there has been proportionally higher recruitment at the bottom of the scale. This means, mathematically, when you have expensive pilots being replaced by cheaper pilots, your per-pilot salary cost actually decreases over time. It is factually incorrect to call increments pay rises when, without % increases of those increments, the actual cost to the company decreases over time. Unless it’s costing the company more, the pilot body as a whole isn’t getting paid more. End of.

Finally, I know Moriarty is Chief of Corporate Affairs and not an accountant but, his numbers? Add up his percentages - it comes out to >113%. Complete nonsense. Maybe that’s the airline he wishes he had - an airline with 13% more, and therefore maybe enough, pilots.

Maths is hard.

Tenger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122295455#Comment_122295455

The Indo reporter (first name starts with an F?) Gets his info direct from senior EI mgmt.

He joined the airline as ground staff ariund 25 years back, with a guy who is now an EI exec.

And the Aer Lingus claim that existing incremental scales are equal to "salary increases" is utter bullshit.

The same MGMT who award themselves bonuses BEFORE extradinary costs are deducted from the aannual accounts.

California Dreamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296259#Comment_122296259

Fearghal O’Connor

https://x.com/Independent_ie/status/1804778926410956933

JVince

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122295114#Comment_122295114

and that's how the pilot union has "trained" people to do. Knock back and knock down any suggestion that other staff groups are not happy.

BTW she's in aerlingus for almost 20 years and works the north american routes. She won't be affected as aer lingus are not making dramatic changes to these routes, but she says there is serious discontent by cabin crew with how ialpa has approached this and she had choice words of one particular person - you can guess who he is.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287812#Comment_122287812

American professional salaries are typically significantly higher than Irish ones. That's across the board, not just limited to airlines.

Gusser09

I hear Ryanair are getting in on the act now. Chap i know was due to fly out this saturday. Flights cancelled and had to rebook next available flight. Monday. 2 days lost and flights went from 1400 to 2800.

Im hearing he isnt the only one.

StrawbsM

Hi all. If this is not the correct thread for my question, could someone link me to the right one?

I’m looking at booking with Qantas and the first leg DUB-LHR is operated by British Airways. Is this an actual BA flight or do EI usually provide the service?

I do have other route/airlines that I can use to reach my destination.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297278#Comment_122297278

I wouldn’t call it getting in on the act.

Ryanair cancel flights every day of the week for a variety of reasons, regardless of what’s happening in Aer Lingus.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297301#Comment_122297301

Maybe so. But we know what they are like. I expect to see a lot more of it happening. Would you expect it?

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297309#Comment_122297309

Not really. Ryanair have nothing to gain by cancelling flights, especially at one of the busiest times of the year.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297294#Comment_122297294

What's the flight number and i'll tell you

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297311#Comment_122297311

Id usually agree. But with the industrial strife within their biggest irish competitor there are serious financial gains to be made. Cancelling by a day or two and upping the price of alternative flights knowing punters really have no other option would be Ryanair playbook 101.

john boye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297278#Comment_122297278

Ryanair are not cancelling flights for the Lols, especially not at this time of year.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297328#Comment_122297328

The same Ryanair who get's me to Gatwick and Stanstead on a regular basis for less than 50quid return.

They don't get the recognition or congratulations they deserve imo

Widdensushi

I don't think Ryanair have enough planes for the amount of flights they have committed to, Boeing delays mean they are stretched too thin,seem to be cancelling flights regularly.

donkey balls

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297278#Comment_122297278

I asked a mate of mine about the exact same thing and he is an FR skipper he said that FR are struggling for crews as well. All though a neighbour of mine sent me screenshots of FR flights that she is taking and the fares doubled in price.

StrawbsM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297319#Comment_122297319

It starts with BA. The next flight time on the list says EI.

So I should be staying away from the EI listed ones?

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297521#Comment_122297521

Either give me the flight number, BA123, or type it yourself into flightradar and you will get the airline and type for previous sectors flown over the last few weeks.

Sidenote that i see EI593 is the Privilege 777 currently on route from BCN. (Should be over my house in about 5 minutes0

Widdensushi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297381#Comment_122297381

I would imagine any other airline with flights out of Ireland are getting a nice revenue boost out of the uncertainty.

StrawbsM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297530#Comment_122297530

ba831

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297569#Comment_122297569

Ye you're fine Strawbs. It'll be a BA319/320 aircraft

They codeshare some(all?) of there flights with EI in and out of Ireland, but this will on a BA plane

TheDriver

Interesting scaremongering from Moriarty that flights may get cancelled at the departure gate. As a company, they are doing everything to scare customers rather than trying to reassure. Strange tactic and unsure how it helps the situation.

CoisFharraige

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297623#Comment_122297623

Agreed. Seems as if they're so hell-bent on getting the public to turn against the pilots that they're willing to go so far as to actively dissuade customers from booking. Very, very strange behavior.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297640#Comment_122297640

It seems IAG play hardball regardless of who threatens strike action.

https://www.eurocockpit.eu/news/iag-vs-sepla-case-fundamental-rights

Noxegon

Ryanair, saints that they are, have added extra flights to Malaga, Faro, and London (Stansted) this weekend.

The Stansted flights start at €270 one way. A week later, they're €24.

I get that it's an opportunity to make some quick cash, but can you imagine how much good will they could muster if they had a sensible price and all you needed to book it was an Aer Lingus booking reference?

https://corporate.ryanair.com/novidades/ryanair-adds-extra-dublin-flights-to-from-london-faro-and-malaga-next-weekend-as-holiday-flights-completely-sold-out/

Widdensushi

They don't have spare planes so must be cancelling other flights to put those flights on.

Trampas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297834#Comment_122297834

Only useful if staying in London. Not much use if connecting to another flight

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297623#Comment_122297623

Strange tactic from management. The travelling public are only collateral damage, whether they are on the side of pilots or management is completely irrelevant. Having the public on "your side" whichever that may be won't cause the other to compromise any faster.

The only time public opinion plays a real role in industrial relations is when the dispute is with the State and thus impacts the government's popularity.

MrMusician18

Good will doesn't buy bread and would be quickly forgotten.