Aer Lingus Flight Crew Industrial relations thread 2024

donkey balls

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303294#Comment_122303294

As in company and Union ?

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303077#Comment_122303077

First sentence says it all.

No comprehension of the issues involved.

PreCocious

I don't understand why people are not listening to Mr. Walsh. A lifetime spent in the airline industry, almost got shafted with his own 800k bonus, works for the Airlines Union (nice pay as well).

Let's call spades spades - IATA isn't a neutral, just like IBEC isn't.

lintdrummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303405#Comment_122303405

Please elaborate.

It's been a long time since WW was a pilot. His peers these days are in the C suite.

lintdrummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303322#Comment_122303322

Yes, another disappointing day in the labour court. Given the apparent urgency with which the parties were called in, I expected more than "We can't help right now, we'll try again in July". Seems to have been an exercise in optics more than anything else. It was good to finally see the CEO in public though if nothing else!

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303424#Comment_122303424

What does that mean, does it automatically put him into a situation where he tells lies and

risks his reputation spouting vested interest garbage?

Surely one cannot extrapolate the argument that being a resident of the C suite automatically

puts one into a certain mindset.

Got to feel that’s a bit off the wall.

notuslimited

To me, the CEO’s lack of public comment bar today smacks of the strings being pulled by IAG itself. I suspect that she has no real power to end this dispute. I am sure it’s not lost on IALPA that IAG is a different type of owner and has plenty of ability for mischief making. As I have said before, IALPA needs to be careful that it might win this battle but lose the war.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122302568#Comment_122302568

that’s interesting. I did it twice and curtain both ways, not that I was bothered.

LimaRomeo990

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303402#Comment_122303402

Yeah. Can they speak again themselves instead of waiting for the Labour Court?

DOCARCH

Email from EI this evening that my flight to Heraklion (Crete) on July 4th will now be operated by Danish Air Transport (DAT).

Good to hear/a relief but also tells my EI not really expecting any resolution to this in the very near future.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303574#Comment_122303574

320 or 321

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Danish-Air-Transport

LimaRomeo990

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303583#Comment_122303583

OY-JRS A320 is operating for EI from Dublin now

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303600#Comment_122303600

Lovely paint job

lintdrummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303471#Comment_122303471

He doesn't have to lie, he's just offering an opinion. I believe he's biased in his opinion and it's frankly sensationalist.

He says Aer Lingus' performance is weak in the IAG group: but they're on a par with BA in terms of margin and consistently make large profit.

He says that if Aer Lingus offer "anything close" to what the pilots want, their future investment opportunities would be undermined: Debatable, but what's he defining as "anything close"? - EI have already offered half of what the pilots were asking for before the row even kicked off, you'd think it wouldn't take much more in the grand scheme of things to reach a settlement. Clearly they were happy to offer reasonably close to what the pilots are seeking.

He says that employee costs in EI are 23% higher than the IAG average: is that driven by the pilot wages? BA pilot pay is higher than EI, Iberia around the same. Perhaps lower salaries for other staff groups in the Spanish operators lower the average? I'm just not convinced that number on it's own says much about the pilot pay in EI.

He says the 24% claim is way beyond anything he's seen before: he must have been looking away when BA pilots got close to 29% over the same period EI pilots are making their claim for. Not to mention the countless other examples of pilot pay increases of 24% and higher that have been implemented at numerous airlines around the globe since Covid.

Clearly you think his opinion is honest and accurate. I disagree. Can't see how that's "off the wall".

LimaRomeo990

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303614#Comment_122303614

White is all in now for planes these days.

donkey balls

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303530#Comment_122303530

It could be down to the company &union my place has work practices going back to the 60s/70s mad kip of a place. As I've said in previous posts no union or members really wanna go down withdrawal of services and it is last thing they want.

Due to the nature of the companies business we still have an obligation to cover the work with a skeleton crew.

Which rotates among the members in all departments.

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303656#Comment_122303656

A simple google doesn't seem to say that pilot pay is higher in BA

It seems to suggest starting pay is higher but not so if the pilot gets enough hours which seems to be the case as IALPA is quick to say there is a shortage of pilots but average pay for most captains in BA unlike the head of Ialpa in EI is a lot lower...

Two links here,1st is from RTÉ suggesting they're paid more than FR pilots

FROM RTÉ :

"At the entry-level, a co-pilot starting out is paid a basic salary of around €36,000. With payments related to actual hours flying an aircraft, that co-pilot can reach a total remuneration package of around €59,000 a year.

A captain at the top of the scale earns a total package of around €287,000.

There are different pay structures for co-pilots and captains, as well as different scales depending on whether a pilot flies long-haul or short-haul routes.

When it comes to the latter, Aer Lingus pilots are well-paid compared to their short-haul colleagues in competitor airlines such as Ryanair.

Of the almost 800 pilots at Aer Lingus, around a quarter of them are pilots on the top pay grade.

At the other end of the scale, IALPA has accused management of failing to reverse Covid-era cuts to lower pay grades for new entrants resulting in new pilots earning up to 10% less than colleagues who were employed prior to the pandemic."

BUT imho,the demands are difficult to justify for such a well paid job,there couldn't be any paupers flying planes thats for sure

I'm not leaving management off the hook either

A reasonable compromise to me seems to be give them 15% but subject to productivity

This from IALPA line 'we are not going to pay for our own pay increase' from such highly paid employee's in the first place is highly insulting to the flying public and commerce in my opinion

A bit of cop on

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0616/1454835-aer-lingus/ https://www.thesun.ie/travel/11816213/british-airways-pilot-salary-earnings/

Qaanaaq

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303485#Comment_122303485

Nope. I'd say it her personal style more than anything else. Not all CEOs are O'leary types

notuslimited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303835#Comment_122303835

We will agree to differ.

Spanish Eyes

Are the crews on planes "bussed in" for strike days considered to be Scabs or what's the situation? Do ground staff (check in etc.) co operate with them OK? Obviously they do but I've often wondered about that.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122304027#Comment_122304027

No flights operated during the strike period I think

Spanish Eyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122304039#Comment_122304039

What about all the people who have received emails saying such and such an airline will be operating your flight on X day, are they not strike days? Sorry I am not targeting you as knowing all the answers either I'm just curious!

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122304095#Comment_122304095

There is an official strike Saturday morning and other affected flights are during the work to rule. I don’t believe any flights are departing during the strike period

Spanish Eyes

Ah, so the contracted flights are presumably to mop up the overflow/back up due the strike days when there is no EI service. That makes more sense. Thank you.

lintdrummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122303805#Comment_122303805

Top of scale BA long haul captain on £196,438 according to :

https://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/British_Airways_Mainline

That's €232,614.67 at today's rate. That's basic pay. Considerably more than top of scale at EI. Top of scale short haul at BA works out at €197,181.60 which is very close to EI.

Other end of the scale is also well above EI. FOs start at £65909 which is €78,043.88. Again that's basic salary.

So there is no pilot in BA who isn't paid better than their colleague in EI.

Ryanair a different prospect. Often not viewed as a career airline for pilots but it has it's benefits. Quick command and thus a year 6 pilot would be earning much more at RYR than his EI equivalent. If not tied to a city, mobile contracts at RYR very lucrative and good work/life balance with 5on/5off vs 5on/3off at EI.

The one thing about this figure of 200 pilots at top of scale that seems to be going over a lot of heads: these are guys and girls who have been flying at least 26 years at Aer Lingus. Vast majority will be retiring in the next few years. The amount of top of scale salaries to be paid is decreasing year on year. Not too many pilots mid scale, lots at the bottom.

I think it's a very justifiable claim. It's in line with other airlines globally, even within the IAG group. It only accounts for lost earnings due to inflation. The company is in rude health and plans to grow it's profits over the coming years.

As for paying for their own pay increase: I'm with them on that. They already work close to max hours every year, the airline is clearly under crewed given the amount of cancellations a work to rule has caused, what more flexibility can they give?

lintdrummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122304127#Comment_122304127

Moreover they are to pick up the deficit due to the work to rule, pilots working to their published rosters has such an impact that they need hire ins to cover the flights that they won't be able to crew with the pilots they have. The hire ins are already in Dublin and operating. The work stoppage isn't happening until Saturday.

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122304203#Comment_122304203

What extra flexibility are they being asked to give,thats undoable?

We will have to agree to disagree on the flexibility meaning the pilots would be paying the rise out of their own pocket as if agreed,they will be on more money tgat previously they didn't have

If 20% are due to retire and on 270 or 280 k,they're just taking the proverbial in my book

That being said,its a free market and if theres a shortage of pilots,its a pilots market and you can't blame IALPA for taking advantage of that

lintdrummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122304557#Comment_122304557

I've no idea, I don't think that's been publicised. I'm just making the point that there doesn't appear to be a whole lot that they could give, it's not like they have low hour contracts.

We'll have to disagree even further I'm afraid because the whole point Ialpa are making is that while the monetary figure would be increased, it's only to match the value of the salary they were earning in 2019, so yes it's a pay rise but the value of the money will be the same as it was 5 years ago. If you now say that you want them to give away working conditions to facilitate this pay rise, then they will be working harder for effectively the same pay they were on 5 years ago. Nobody had a problem with what the pilots were earning 5 years ago, nor when they got pay rises on schedule prior to 2019. Why is it such a big issue that they want to earn the same now given that the company is very profitable and can absolutely afford to pay them?

I don't understand the issue you have with senior people earning a good wage. They've worked their whole lives for it. They get the biggest monetary increase but for the shortest timeframe. It stinks of begrudgery. Is their some arbitrary figure we should agree that no worker should be able to earn in excess of? Let's not forget that almost half of whatever they earn is going to go straight to the exchequer.

Tenger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122301525#Comment_122301525

Which is exactly the point I was making.

A statement with zero facts to back it up.

The EI CEO seems to be a part time worker who recently received a renumeration bump of over 24%.

notuslimited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122304599#Comment_122304599

lintdrummer, there you go again. Getting personal and playing the man and not the ball. Why is it that anybody who questions a pilots high salary is a begrudger. It cheapens your argument and turns people off the point you are trying to make.

Try and see the world through the eyes of the thousands of families who are being personally affected by this dispute. Please consider the mental anguish, stress and financial costs that people are suffering. None of this seems to matter to IALPA, IAG and some people on this forum. Where is the empathy?

I could not care less how much a pilot gets paid. As I’ve said before, I want my pilot to have a good income, to live in a nice house, to drive a nice car, and to have a good standard of living. However, going on strike for more money when you are on circa €200k given the impact it is having on people, well maybe it’s just me, but I find it morally repugnant. I couldn’t do it. My conscience wouldn’t allow me.