Aer Lingus Flight Crew Industrial relations thread 2024

California Dreamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306008#Comment_122306008

Is it a problem where someone “stands”?

Hey Tenger, how dare you have an opinion lest you insult the lower classes!!!

FionnK86

that’s great news

California Dreamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122305590#Comment_122305590

Out of curiousity is it just pilots that you have an issue with or is it any profession that earns more than someone in the health service?

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306026#Comment_122306026

Why do you ask that, who said it was "a problem" where someone stands?

Finding it difficult to figure out your point.

Lockheed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122305920#Comment_122305920

There is no scope for work stoppage from ground staff as a result of this strike action.

All staff other than pilots including ground staff are still advised to report to work as rostered.

breadmond

I really don't see how this helps things at all from IAG

https://x.com/rtenews/status/1805884017041973599?t=eoFMmbZ3_N3bT2LmfFnCYw&s=08

Locker10a

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306076#Comment_122306076

standard practice during industrial disputes

Brendan Bendar

Friend of mine told me that the "concession travel" is for leisure travel only?

Not sure how true or not that is but as Locker says what happened is standard practice in disputes.

Not a good idea in my opinion though.

breadmond

Standard practice or not if you're trying to minimise disruption why would you make it harder for your workers to get to work. IAG seem to be more invested in getting one over on the pilots than actually reaching a solution

California Dreamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306057#Comment_122306057

You think you know where Tenger stands. This is why I asked YOU why is that a problem?

I am trying to figure out your point in any of this or do you just like to argue the points being made by both sides? What is your end game?

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306128#Comment_122306128

Where did I say that it was a "problem".

I'm confused here my friend, enlighten me .

notuslimited

Fingers crossed.

California Dreamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306139#Comment_122306139

Ok, well let me follow up your question with a question of my own. Could you clarify your statement on your assessment of Tenger and the position of where he alledgly stands? I’m trying to figure out what stance you are taking on this whole arguement.

Phen2206

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122305590#Comment_122305590

You are absolutely right, there are many things that healthcare can and should learn from aviation. Aviation has, down through the decades and through many sad and tragic lessons, learned that safety must be the number one priority and any commercial interests come second. That is why it is as safe as it is today, but it hasn't happened overnight. It would seem that errors in healthcare provision that result in harm seem to be more tolerable; case in point the recent high-profile case of the death of a young woman in hospital in Limerick due to sepsis.

Some changes have been made in healthcare such as introduction of checklists pre-surgery to help trap errors and mandated breaks but a lot more needs to be done. Hospitals are overcrowded and staff are overworked. I would imagine the biggest barrier is cost, and would the exchequer in any given country be able to absorb the increased staffing costs etc. that would come with aviation-style safety systems applied to healthcare? The answer right now is sadly probably no.

Some anecdotal evidence would suggest that some surgeons/consultants are not receptive to the idea of CRM (crew resource management) which is a mainstay of safety in aviation. Good CRM essentially would mean for example that the senior surgeon/clinician in an operating theatre would be receptive to correction in the event that a mistake was being made. There was a sad example of an incident in the UK where nursing staff could see something was going wrong with a patient being put under anaesthetic prior to an operation. They prepared the equipment that they thought was going to be used by the doctors to rescue the situation but the doctors did not act correctly and the nursing staff were too shy to speak up. The patient sadly died but her husband was a pilot with BA and he later embarked on a campaign to help train healthcare staff in good CRM. Should go without saying that pilots are actively trained to speak up and intervene if a senior colleague in the opposite seat is endangering the aircraft. Medicine could do with this philosophy being more widespread.

A long-winded post but suffice to say yes, it may be depressing for healthcare workers but the standards of safety in aviation are something to look up to and change can happen but will probably need political will as well as the will of the staff themselves.

Tenger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306008#Comment_122306008

Keeping a company "viable" doesn't have to be at the expense of the work/life balance of the staff. Disgruntled staff are less productive than content staff.

A well resourced operation runs well and can be resilience in times of disruption. A barely resourced operation is tettering every day and collapses during disruptions.

Pre-Covid Aer Lingus were the best performing airline in IAG. (Based on published financial results) Staff were content, paid well compared to other airlines based in Ireland, operational profits were very positive.

It was a well run, well oiled machine.

Summer 2022, Aer Lingus failed to be agile enough to deal with a bounce back of demand in aviation.

Summer 2023 saw a shortage of crew and engineers, leading to millions of Euro wasted hiring in other airlines to operate their own routes.

An airline that doesn't have enough staff isn't "viable". That's a fault solely on the shoulders of mgmt.

Tenger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306120#Comment_122306120

Over the last 6-8 years Aer Lingus has expanded its hiring efforts. (Due to its expansion and a shortage of suitable applicants from Ireland) There are now a lot more non-Irish flight crew and cabin crew than.back in 2012.

They were hired with the assurance that commuting back and forth to Spain/UK/Italy/Netherlands/France would be hassle free.

sailing

As someone on a social media platform said, Aer lingus seem to have the ability to shot themselves in not just one but two feet.

There are very large numbers of commuting staff, amongst the ranks of Engineers, Pilots, cabin crew and management themselves.

The pilots knew that staff concessions would be removed from them during IA. BA did it in the past with their staff, so it’s probably a common IAG tactic.

However the knock on effect for commuting staff will have an impact. Of course Aer Lingus could book them on a flight if required but it would defeat the purpose. I believe captains have historically helped the company enormously with ensuring all staff are accommodated when commuting. It would be common enough in the industry.

Anyway, let’s hope Aer Lingus are serious with their requests for talks tomorrow and progress can be made.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306735#Comment_122306735

You know how it will go, well i do anyway.

No common ground, concessions, being made, we're being realistic

That'll be the buzzwords from the beards and the "management" tomorrow.

It will get the ball rolling. Should get the sorted within a month.

Trampas

Hopefully the talks make some progress in resolving the issues. I don’t expect it be done or close to done. Might be a case of let’s listen to what they have got to say and take it away. That might not please ei but hopefully ei have something better to offer than doesn’t make it worse

TheDriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306904#Comment_122306904

Hopefully some stability whilst they talk it out and shelve the scare mongering. I assume there's no point calling off Sat as everyone affected has either moved or just made other plans

Trampas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306921#Comment_122306921

I’d be surprised if weekend is called off unless they make some agreement that doesn’t need to be voted on. I’d like if it could be called off like everyone else

moonshy2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306927#Comment_122306927

ALL flights have been cancelled, passengers have been moved. EI would be flying empty aircraft if they followed what you suggest.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306184#Comment_122306184

My friend, it shouldn't be too difficult given my posts on this thread.

Now I have no intention in involving Mr Tenger is discourse with posters here, hope you can appreciate that.

My stance is very simple, I give my opinion on what I hear from reputable sources, I don't sling mud at any of the parties involved in the dispute, I understand that both parties have perfect rights to do what they are doing but on opposite sides of the argument.

My m.o. is not to start getting personal and attributing stuff to either the pilots or EI mgmnt that I couldn't stand over.

I see plenty of it on this thread.

So there you are, no big deals here, no masked journos hiding in the shadows, no reds under the bed, no Arthur Scargills, no Cohn-Bendits… Hope you can ride that horse?

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122306479#Comment_122306479

Mr Tee staff numbers are very like preparing for snow events in airports which see little of it

They don't have very expensive equipment lying around in large numbers in the unlikely event of a snow event.

If the event does happen they will suck up the chaos for a day or two and save huge moolah over the years.

Nowadays firms have to be lean and mean and plan their staff to almost the limit to stay competitive.

Most stuff is 'just in time' these days and contented underworked staff are i'm afraid history.

Thats not to my liking but its the way things are going, very little redundancy built in to most operational logistics.

Tenger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122307408#Comment_122307408

My use of the term "disruption" wasn't implying once a year snow days, or IT system collapses. These rare occurances cannot be resourced in advance (and shouldn't be)

I was referring to one of the 15 A330s going tech for 3 days in August, t-storms in July across Europe, ATC restrictions in Heathrow, night curfew trapping an A320 in Frankfurt, cross winds in the Canaries, etc

These are normal, regular occurances in aviation.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122307408#Comment_122307408

I think you can be too lean if it's less profitable in the long run.

jellies

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122307574#Comment_122307574

RIght. It's not really sustainable if Aer Lingus management are running the airline on the back of pilots goodwill when they don't have any (and in fact, the opposite).

lintdrummer

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2024/0625/1456549-aer-lingus-pilots-management-passengers-dispute-2024/

Great article. I believe the following point is particularly important:

"Playing a hard game could mean management miss an important factor: it is not so much how to fight a dispute that is a main challenge, but how to end a strike and restore a collaborative long-term future relationship. Trust may not be a prerequisite for successful negotiation, but if trust and moral has broken down between workers and management, it can take years to rebuild. This has attendant performance and productivity problems that can beset a demoralised labour force post dispute."

It's fairly obvious that the relationship between management and their pilots is at a very low point. Hard to see how that can be repaired even after this dispute is resolved. Aer Lingus have interfered in their pilot's democratic process, targeted the senior pilots by pushing a narrative around their pay in the media, publicised salaries, accused them of engaging in an orchestrated false sickness campaign (which it seems to have quietly let go), sent legal threats to the Union and to individual pilots… Hard to see that being forgiven and forgotten too quickly.

orchidkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122300657#Comment_122300657

The average office worker does not get guaranteed yearly increments on top of the 4% pay rise so don't know why your trying to make that comparison.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122307574#Comment_122307574

Yes.

Valid point there