Aer Lingus Flight Crew Industrial relations thread 2024

john boye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122262921#Comment_122262921

In a way, yes, but adding flights later in the year wouldn't replace the revenue lost on peak season sun flights.

donkey balls

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122258696#Comment_122258696

Really how would that work? We've gone through three MD over the last 10 years they come in grab what they can get out of us and are gone within three years to another country operation.

Last MD tried to overturn a pay agreement that he signed was more or less told by the guys in Europe to just honour the agreement.

It looks like EI mgmt are in it for the short term get what they can from the staff and head off into the sunrise with a nice bonus and leave the employees to carry on with whatever cuts they implied.

vegandinner

Hopefully, Aer Lingus will set up a Malta AOC. This move could help keep costs under control and prevent passengers from being held at ransom, as is currently happening with IALPA. Additionally, the cap at DUB badly needs lifting, and ideally, priority should be given to slots for airlines other than EI and FR to stimulate a bit more competition. Prices this summer out of DUB are very high, and it feels like there is some level of agreement between FR and EI to avoid a race to the bottom on fares.

OU812

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122262792#Comment_122262792

A personal choice surely?

Thanks to those who answered in one way or another

Poland2020

This is disappointing view. The minute you start wanting Malta AOC’s for every op co you have hit rock bottom. There is a massive shortage in the market (pilots) a mix of high interest rates, furlough in down times and a better work life balance on other industries.

A high tide rises all boats and wanting rogue AOC’s with 0 hr contracts has crept from the aviation industry into Amazon/Apple Europe and the likes. You won’t have any pilots left. Ryanair case in point - this summer is a mess there.

The industry needs to attract the best people it can get - competing with IT and Pharma.

As the Manic Street Preachers sang “if you tolerate this then your children will be next” 🎵

Van.Bosch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122264099#Comment_122264099

agreed - and a Maltese AOC would only cover short haul right?

My fear wouldn’t be a Maltese AOC but rather Level setting up in Dublin, code-sharing with EI to provide the feed. Vueling could also replace some routes etc

donkey balls

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122264099#Comment_122264099

The zero hour contract or fix termed contracts are rampant in the transport and logistics sector,This is leading to young people not wanting to work in the industry. I had some of our drivers tell me that they were on a Hazchem course and the youngest lad on the course was 49. I think with CV19 people discovered that there is handier jobs M/F rather than aviation which is 24/7/365.

knobtasticus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122263391#Comment_122263391

’Hopefully’? For who? The only people benefiting from such a scenario would be IAG shareholders. Why would any ordinary worker in Ireland be hoping other workers get screwed over for the sake of some unseen - and already incredibly wealthy - shareholder? Honestly, the lack of self-awareness and begrudgery the public-at-large show when any group of workers try to better their circumstances is shameful. All while, according to CSO figures, that same general public has enjoyed an average of ~24% increase in their own pay since 2020.

Every other worker in Ireland (with some very rare exceptions I believe) is entitled to use industrial action in defence of their livelihoods. I don’t know why anyone would expect different from aviation employees.

Regardless, how do you suppose a ‘Malta AOC’ would work? Who are they going to get to work for them? The costs you’re suggesting to be apparently saved would be on wages - airlines are struggling to attract and retain staff as it is with current T&Cs so how do you think paying people less is going to work? O’Leary had to go and buy a flippin’ housing estate just to try retain new hires for at least a year because the cost of living in Ireland is driving foreign hires back home again.

Did I hear some EI management head throw out €40M for the cost of the pay demand? €40M. A rounding error on IAG’s balance sheet. The lads and ladies in EI are only asking for their spending power to be restored to what it was 4+ years ago - something any business as wildly profitable as EI has zero valid argument against. They should have everyone’s full support.

(Apologies to the Mods for derailing the thread again)

notuslimited

Taken from the Irish Times on 12 June 2024.

Pilot pay at the airline is understood to be significantly better than at Ryanair with rates of about €60,000 for some new entrants and €167,500 for captains with 20 years’ service. A small number are paid more than that while allowances, pension and other payments substantially boost basic pay rates, by more than €70,000 in the case of the long service captains. If the pilots were to achieve what they are seeking, this would add €50,000 a year to the overall pay of the company’s highest earning pilots.

So, taking a Capt with 20 years service on €167,500 salary plus the €70,000 in allowances and flight pay means that they are earning €237,500. And this will go to €287,500 if they get what they are looking for.

In short, assuming the tax man takes c.50%, this means that a Captain as described above is currently earning after tax c.€9,896 per month and this will go to c.€11,800 if the union gets what it wants.

Happy to be corrected but those numbers are not to be sniffed at.

Poland2020

Ryanair pilot pay has improved significantly in the last few years. An Irish based skipper in the height of the summer nets between €8500 - €9200 ish.

The problem they have is it’s a ferocious career doing 35yrs of slogging Europe max hours on an early /late/ early / roster. Most days there are 4 sectors.

Mr Moriarty has been saying certain figures to the media and adding in the pension for max impact.

Trampas

People looking for Ei to split into some Malta version probably same people who complain when they ring up and the call centre is in Timbuktu and person on the call first language isn’t English and they can’t help them as their question isn’t on their spreadsheet.

Shareholders only want return on their investment and usually keeps costs down and top management want to make the cuts as the bigger savings the bigger their bonus is.

knobtasticus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122265041#Comment_122265041

Not so ‘significantly better’ that EI hasn’t seen new hires from FR leave and go back to FR over the last few months. Such was the unmanageable pay cut they experienced.

The pay scales for EI pilots were established and agreed many years ago. Like every other worker in the country, they’re entitled to expect the value of their pay to be sustained in line with inflation - particularly when the company is paying millions in increasing bonuses to executives. Had EI management proactively raised salaries in line with inflation over the past few years then its pilots wouldn’t need to now be asking for it in one large lump - with the associated large-looking numbers.

FR not paying their pilots as much as EI is a problem solved by FR paying more, not by EI paying less.

For some added context if we’re going to drag other companies into this - on a given day on the Atlantic, EI’s US competition will have flight decks with skippers on ~$450K and FOs on ~$250K. Meanwhile, EI’s flight deck could have a combined total salary as low as ~$190K. With all the recent command upgrades and new hires, EI’s LR flight deck is the cheapest in the sky and even a 24% pay rise won’t change that.

jellies

"Shipping giant UPS has warned its profits will be lower than planned this year, in part reflecting the pay increases it agreed to grant US workers in a labour deal last month.

UPS said the average full-time driver would earn about $170,000 (£135,000) annually, including healthcare and other benefits, by the end of the five-year contract."

For what it's worth this is the recent deal that UPS drivers agreed in the US (a similar high cost economy). 20%+ seems to be the going rate for pilot pay deals across Europe ( eg EasyJet). AL need to pay the going rate and despite their PR and protestations, they know it!

Bobtheman

Pilots have been underpaid for years. My advice to any pilot is to switch off the media. The public will turn on you. You win disputes by pissing people off not by them loving you.

howyanow

I am a bit worried myself about a holiday next week.

Im due to fly Sunday 23rd June to Portugal and back 3rd July.

I always fly Aer Lingus as I find better service and comfort,I also am not wanting to fly Boeing with all the recent negativety around them.

I know its hard to call but how likely am I to have my holiday cancelled?

I support the pilots,its a difficult highly pressurised and skilled job so I hope ita resolved asap and little disruption for all concerned.

faceman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122262802#Comment_122262802

Some of these facts were debunked in the media in the media as either incorrect or misleading.

Mark Tighe was on Newstalk alongside Donal Moriarty the other day. Tighe came across quite poorly and greedy. His of his facts were shot down too. Moriarty ran rings around him effortlessly.

Like any strike, there'll be no public support from anyone effected by the strike and ultimately no one will win - even if the pilots get what they want.

No one will win that is, except, Ryanair. 🤪

vegandinner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122264936#Comment_122264936

What drivel, clearly from an IALPA stooge.

I don’t care what IALPA does to strike; it’s the families with holidays who lose out here. I’ve no problem with industrial action, but blocking a Maltese AOC is bad for consumers. This country is an island and needs reliable, cheap air travel.

While it's great that some workers have seen a pay increase, let's not pretend that all Irish workers have benefited equally. The aviation industry is crucial for our connectivity and economy. Ensuring that it operates efficiently and affordably is in everyone’s interest.

Industrial action should be balanced against the needs of the wider public. Creating barriers to potential cost-saving measures like a Malta AOC only serves to harm the very people who rely on affordable flights—ordinary travellers and families. So yes, I’m all for workers defending their rights, but not at the expense of the broader public good.

knobtasticus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122266679#Comment_122266679

Did we listen to the same interview? Moriarty came across extremely disingenuous and - likely unknown to the general public - the points he made were demonstrably dishonest. To the extent that clips of his answers are getting memed HARD in WhatsApp groups. For example - suggesting that EI’s pilots HAD, in fact, received average pay rises of 24% over the last 4 years through the incremental pay scale. EI management know well this is a pathetically disingenuous argument but those are the only sort of arguments they’ve got left, it seems. Increments are not pay rises. If the company genuinely believed that, then they’ve already contradicted themselves in offering any sort of % increase at all.

A mind-boggling lack of self-awareness, really. And Moriarty should be forced to admit that dishonesty at some point in the future.

Which facts, specifically, have been ‘debunked’ in the media? Bearing in mind, the media has no capacity to ‘debunk’ anything on its own. Everything the media reports is based solely on what’s reported to it by vested interests. EI’s pilot pay scales aren’t hard to find online and the numbers listed in the comment you quoted are verifiably spot-on.

dash8q400

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122266896#Comment_122266896

Seems like there are a few stooges on this forum and not all IALPA by the looks of it lol!

Workers defending their rights has nothing to do with the public good, they're seeking better terms and conditions for themselves as is their right, the rest of you don't come in to it. It's the same of any group seeking better conditions.

Lustrum

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122266896#Comment_122266896

One of the good things about connectivity to and from this island is that there is a choice for you to go on your holidays. You can choose to fly with the airline that have a Maltese AOC, who offer low fares by paying their staff pittence, by charging you exorbitant costs to select a seat, bring a bag, change a name, print a boarding card etc. That choice is there for you every day.

Likewise, the pilots in Aer Lingus have chosen to stand up for themselves, and place a value on the service they offer to the company and the passengers. There were flights today cancelled to Lyon, Amsterdam, Heathrow, Hartford, Berlin and Faro - this falls squarely on management's shoulders, the same management who took a 155% payrise last year. The pilots quite rightly want to be paid properly, as they should be, along with the cabin crew and maintenance staff too. Because without them, nobody is flying anywhere on a EI plane

notuslimited

Out of interest, why were those flights cancelled today?

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122267178#Comment_122267178

For what it's worth, Aer Lingus and Ryanair are as bad as each other when it comes to fees on European routes now. Bringing a checked bag on what EI deems a "far route" costs €55, and there are six different pricing options for seat selection.

I can't imagine more than a tiny fraction of a percent of passengers need a name change or a boarding pass printed for them these days.

Trampas

If a strike is announced I wonder will they announce weeks of dates in advance. So it’ll send the switchboard crazy

Qprmeath

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122267372#Comment_122267372

Crew shortages was one of the factors.

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268369#Comment_122268369

Is there such a thing as a company switchboard any more? It's like something you'd hear about on the "wireless".

Rock Steady Edy

Operating profit at Aer Lingus was €225m in 2023, up from €45m in 2022, but still about €50m lower than 2019. Operating margin in Ryanair and Aer Lingus seems to be about 10%, so costs need to be carefully managed.

From the couple of European destinations I've checked, flight prices are definitely softer now than at the same time last year even without the effect of a strike, presumably due to the effect of higher interest rates on family budgets.

The added threat of a strike stops people booking ahead - they don't want the added uncertainty, reducing revenue, and that's before all the compensation claims for existing bookings

Basing such a substantial pay claim on one year's profits that looks unlikely to be sustained and on what I think most would regard as very good salaries looks like financial suicide to me. Aer Lingus management need to spell it out.

Tenger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122267372#Comment_122267372

For years now Aer Lingus has operated their schedule by juggling staff rosters, relying on volunteers to work on their days off to plug gaps. (staff do get financial incentives to do these extra shifts or get another day off of their choice at a later date)

If/when staff stop volunteering the operation struggles to continue.

in addition Aer Lingus schedule assumes that every aircraft will operate on schedule, with no technical faults whatsoever.

(EG, Two 330 come in at 5am from the USA, then goes to Malaga/Faro, back in Dublin at 2pm, then off to the USA again at 4pm)

Their schedule has very little buffer/resilience built into it. So if 2-3 A320 have a problem on the same day they don't have reserve/standby A320 on hand.

Snow Leopard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122267027#Comment_122267027

The vast majority of workers in the private sector do not benefit from an incremental pay scale. Increments are, by definition, a pay rise.

BringBackMick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122267178#Comment_122267178

are you referring to Aerlingus 10 years ago ?

I only have experience on Euro Routes but the fees and service offered by both Aerlingus and Ryanair are similar these days

Both pretty terrible - at least Ryanair you’re more likely to arrive on time

I’m guessing transatlantic Aerlingus flights are different

the service from Aerlingus in my experience over last 5 years has progressively gone downhill and Is now on a par with Ryanair but with higher fares and often very frustratingly slow embarkation and disembarkation

Lockheed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122268948#Comment_122268948

Aer Lingus consistently beat Ryanair in DUB, month on month, for OTP.