Aer Lingus Flight Crew Industrial relations thread 2024

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122355353#Comment_122355353

If they don't and the staff do, they're dead to rights PR wise. Id say it would end up costing them a lot more

Gary walsh 32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122355777#Comment_122355777

Well according to rte aerlingus have accepted it if true it's all down the pilot so I was wrong just don't tell the wife haha

lintdrummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122355359#Comment_122355359

It's quite implicit that the crewing agreement comes to an end at the end of 2024, should both parties accept the recommendation. It says it recommends this because there is so much contention over the agreement that new negotiations on the subject should be entered into.

Hotblack Desiato

I presume Aer Lingus won't be objecting to a rapid online vote this time…

moonshy2022

exec will meet first to consider proposal. They are currently working according to Capt Tighe. So expect them to meet at earliest opportunity over the next few days.

Then I would assume the exec will have several zoom/teams meeting with members to discuss proposal and a vote will follow. I suspect a timeline for a vote possibly in the next 10-14 days maybe a little longer if clarifications are sought from either side or if members ask for clarification of certain points. This will take time to do back and forth with union/company and LC.

I would suspect the WTR to be stood down once the exec has met and approved a vote.

Irish Gunner

Will the strike continue pending results from pilots and thus Aer Lingus cancel more flights until result in

Tenger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122355992#Comment_122355992

Yes. (However there is no strike currently)

However as mentioned above, if IALPA meet and recommend a Yes vote then the WTR may be paused until the vote is concluded.

Is anyone able to explain what "the crewing agreement" is? Does it gives pilots or the company flexibility?

LC recommend that it ends and both parties go back a negotiate a new version.

Aer Lingus have accepted the proposal: https://www.thejournal.ie/labour-court-17-5-increase-aer-lingus-6430520-Jul2024/

Mobius2021

Smart move by Aer Lingus, the ball is now in the pilots court to either agree or escalate. I would assume they are going to accept otherwise they will lose support from the public leaving IAG free to put the boot in.

Hopefully a good day for both sides and everyone can move on.

lintdrummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356033#Comment_122356033

The crewing agreement involved increasing the number of pilots on the roster which facilitated lowering the max duty time on a 4 sector day and it gave pilots a guaranteed 2 week block of leave in the Summer. Previously they were restricted to 1 week blocks of leave in the Summer. There are other details aimed at improving the A330 work life balance as well but I can't remember them.

jellies

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356581#Comment_122356581

To add that the pilots seem to have accrued some sort of debt as part of this agreement. Presumably to pay for the new pilots on the roster. The labour court seems to have concluded it was not fit for purpose.

knobtasticus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356423#Comment_122356423

Not a difficult decision for EI management to make. The deal is a gift for them. Brings about the structural change to the pay scales permanently limiting the amount of money current and future FOs will be able to earn and dividing the pilot body from a union perspective in the future. In any other environment, such a suggestion would earn an outright refusal from EI’s pilots. Lots of details to be thrashed out yet though I’d imagine. The LC doesn’t seem to have drilled down into the finer elements of how the T&Cs changes will be implemented. The deal has also absolved the company from having to reopen pay negotiations with other employee groups. Absolutely no surprise they were quick to accept it.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356581#Comment_122356581

so dropping this means a discontinuation of the two week holiday in summer or a net gain to available pilots for the airline?

DalRiata

The introduction of a Narrowbody pay cap in effect will cut off many of the current group from ever reaching the top 6 years of the pay scale. The report ignores any effect of inflation from 2019-2022. The headline of 17.75% looks good at first sight, but there is a serious amount of devils in the detail. It’s a clear selling of t+c’s, both current and future. Therefore I would be amazed if this got backing of any union executive or was to pass a ballot of its members.

Van.Bosch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356971#Comment_122356971

is the cap only on narrow body aircraft?

lintdrummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356955#Comment_122356955

Yes, as per the recommendation, the crewing agreement would cease to exist and the entitlement to a consecutive 2 weeks of leave in the Summer would go too. I'm not sure if that would result in a net gain of available pilots. Possibly, if the balance of leave would be taken during the quiet season.

Also worth mentioning that a core part of the agreement was the hiring of additional pilots to facilitate the improved conditions. If the agreement goes, do the surplus pilots go too? Can't see pilots voting in favour of kicking their colleagues out of a job.

DalRiata

Yes.
Bearing in mind with LRs and (possibly?) XLRs to come, no wide body orders on the horizon, there is the possibility in a few short years the number of narrowbody transatlantic could greatly outnumber the number of wide body departures. It’s is little more than a pay cap/cut by stealth.

notuslimited

Reading the RTE article on the Labour Court recommendation, the following couple of sentences caught my eye, in particular, the last one.

In its recommendation, the Labour Court noted that despite extensive engagement by the two sides there has been no discernible narrowing of the gap between the parties.

It also warned of the potential for a very grave and unfavourable outcome should a resolution not be found.

I wonder what they are getting at here. Talk of “a very grave and unfavourable outcome” could mean anything but I wonder is it more directed at what IAG could do if there is no settlement. Despite what posters here seem to believe that IAG would never do this or never do that, I think IAG could and would take actions that could surprise people. I’m not scare mongering, I’d say the Labour Court got wind of what could happen, hence the use of the words. I don’t think we are out of the woods yet.

stephenjmcd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122357217#Comment_122357217

IALPA had warned of a grave escalation if there wasn't a deal. Most likely the labour court has seen the potential for all out strike is very real.

Unlikely to be directed towards IAG

Tenger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122357220#Comment_122357220

Having had a chat with an old mate over the weekend (who works in EI HQ) I think this is aimed at both parties.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122357436#Comment_122357436

Yes, would agree with that view.

I feel this will be accepted by the pilots as it already has by the company.

Both sides have gotten something out of the dispute, without too much' loss of face'

For the pilots to reject this and escalate the industrial action would, in my opinion, lose them of any public support and sympathy they may have.

I feel it would then open the door for actions on both sides which could have very grave consequence for the future of the airline.

Nobody wants that.

Would the pilots risk all that for the 6%? I doubt it……..but…….yeah depends on how hard the hardliners are.

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356881#Comment_122356881

I haven’t had the chance to dig into the whole recommendation yet, but where did you get this from?

“The deal has also absolved the company from having to reopen pay negotiations with other employee groups”

Didn’t the deals the engineers and cabin crew accept last year include renegoation in the event of the pilots getting more? (I believe CC after rejecting the first proposal got that clause added and a second vote just barely passed)

Aidan17

I was informed last week that my return flight on 14th July was cancelled. I waited for Aer Lingus to rebook me on the next available flight but they had not, so I rebooked my flight out and changed my flight back yesterday. I was charged an extra €304 for the next available return flight on 16th July. I have submitted a request for a refund of the €304 and also expe3ct to receive €250 compensation plus expenses in respect of the additional 2 nights accommodation, meals and transport costs I will incur.

If this dispute is resolved before 14th July, will Aer Lingus give me the option to re-route back onto my original flight on 14th, if they do, will that mean I do not qualify for compensation payment €250. If I choose not to re-route back to my original return flight date am I still entitled to a refund of the additional cost of the rebooked flight (€304), plus compensation and expenses for the cancelled flight.

Thanks

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122357695#Comment_122357695

the other unions got 12.25% in various tranches to be implemented by 1 January 2025. I assume this is also the deal that was also on the table for the pilots before any industrial action as an interim measures

the proposed deal is that they get 13.75% by that same date, a whopping 1.5% more than was previously on the table (so maybe not much grumbling from cabin crew and other unions) plus they have negotiated a further 4% to be granted in two tranches covering the balance is 2025 and 2026 - periods for which the other unions have yet to agree or claim for any further rise. Whether the crewing agreement and other changes (eg the 10% lower pay scale for new pilot entrants, the capping of narrow body increments at 20 years instead of 26 years) is more valuable to the airline or the pilots, I have no idea.

Overall, if it transpires that the work to rule (which cost the pilots nothing or very little) and the 8 hour stoppage (which presumably cost some of them money) have resulted in the proverbial “hill of beans”. The extra 1.5% will presumably be taken into account in further pay deals.

Overall the passengers and shareholders lose out by a lot and a very little respectively. Doesn’t seem to have been worth it. iALPA needs to consider some professional management who don’t run their union body up a hill only to gain very little for all the effort.

knobtasticus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122357695#Comment_122357695

Only if the pilots got more without any changes to WCs or other T&Cs. That was why the company were adamant any amount above 12% had to come with some sort of ‘productivity’ change. I’m sure any sort of WC adjustment would probably have qualified. Unfortunately, the change proposed is an extreme one.

DalRiata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122357858#Comment_122357858

I think you are underestimating the massive structural change a narrowbody cap is to the pilots terms and conditions. Alot of them will be essence signing up to massively reduce their career earnings plus whatever knock on consequences for pensions.
There also seems to be an assumption the pilots will accept. This recommendation is essentially the same as the one put forward by the PPT last year with a couple % added on and dragged out over 5 years as opposed 3. You’ll recall how well that was received.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122357947#Comment_122357947

that goes even further to the position that those pilots won’t gain by this deal - does that mean IALPA have not served their interests and are highlighting the headline number as some sort of win when it is less than was previously on the table when all factors are taken into account.

Captain_Crash

Ahh ok, that makes sense. Question is will it be accepted?!? I’m not certain but I think it’ll scrape by, I forsee the union recommending a no vote however. It will cause some issues with other groups too considering the premise of those deals, but a deal is a deal and there appears to be sweet fa that can be done about it.

DalRiata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122357956#Comment_122357956

Yes, I agree, I don’t think this is a particularly good win for IALPA. The cost they are paying for 17% I believe is too high. Having said that, IALPA haven’t came out with anything from what I can see. Longer they deliberate would point to a rejection in my opinion. Had they wanted to sell it as a win, I think they would have beat Aer Lingus to the media. Seen a tweet stating they have asked the LRC for some clarifications, doesn’t sound like acceptance to me.

DalRiata

Another point which I haven’t seen widely discussed is the extent to which Aer Lingus is a fully transatlantic airline from the pilots perspective. Due to the LR’s, 80%+ of the entire pilot body fly transatlantic.
We often hear their salaries compared to Ryanair, Easy etc, but seem to slow to compare them Delta, JetBlue, United, BA etc. I have had it demonstrated me recently, using the publicly available pay scales, how on many A321LR transatlantic departures, the combined basic salaries of the Capt and FO will just about equate to the basic salary of the cruise relief FO on the Delta, JetBlue, United etc parked on next stand in T2 (3 Crew flight deck on all American carriers)

I was pretty shocked by this. Might be a case of ‘grass always greener …’ but it must leave a bad taste in the pilots mouths knowing the profit being made off these flights.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122358062#Comment_122358062

at best you might compare them to other Europe based pilots putting narrow bodies across the Atlantic - say TAP.