Soldier beats a woman unconscious, gets a great reference from his commanding officer, avoids jail.

Frumy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297045#Comment_122297045

My point is why confront them? Let them roar and shout their heads off who cares? Is it really worth being hospitalized for?

Before confronting anyone like that people have to ask themselves 'If I do confront this person it could end in violence or combat, am I prepared for that' It's actually unbelievable to me 99.9% of people don't understand the first rule of all self defense and all martial arts is always the same.

If you can avoid trouble and violence you do. Very easy to get involved in a violent scenario very hard to get out of it.

AnnieinDundrum

John Stuart Mill: “Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.”

Or TLDR you can’t sit there and watch sh!t happen

Tombo2001

………..

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296969#Comment_122296969

The other thing his father said was very instructive "Because in court he got his case squashed and a three-year suspended sentence". In other words, he believes he got away with it. This alone should be grounds to appeal the sentence.

yoke

the reason capable bystanders don’t get involved is because they know the law will not only NOT protect them if they end up in an extended conflict with the perpetrator, but that there’s a good chance that the law will throw the book at them for causing damage to the original perpetrator, and quite often these capable bystanders have jobs/lives/families to think about.

If the law wasn’t seen to be against “vigilante defenders” then we would get more of them.

Vigilantism can get out of hand, but the alternative (letting criminals off scot-free) is even worse.

small amounts of vigilantism (such as beating the **** out of someone who is beating the **** out of someone else) is probably needed in the real world because we don’t have the money for more prisons.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297073#Comment_122297073

Its entirely situationally dependant really. I live in Dublin city centre and have done my fair share of avoiding situations like that. Generally it's as simple as crossing the street when you see some dodgy folks approaching who are up to no good.

It's not always like that though. What if you're in a bar with a gay friend and someone starts hurling homophobic abuse at them? Is there ever a situation where you might respond in their defence or is it just a case of always sitting there looking at the floor in the hope that it all goes away?

walshb

I am not sure the DPP will appeal the sentence. The DPP cannot really act on the publics' demand here, albeit they are aware of this demand. It's a very fine balance. I am no legal expert, but 5 years available and all the details of the case should have seen him serving 4 years. Only mitigating is the guilty plea (which he was forced into). No previous convictions? So what…this one was bad enough!!!!

I think everyone (Natasha included) would have been "happy" with 4 years. Had it happened after the 5 years was increased to 10 years, 8 years would have sufficed

Frumy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297109#Comment_122297109

But you are using a different scenario. The Natasha incident was on the street, she approached him and she was so close to him he could grab her and you just said you avoid these situations yourself!

'Is there ever a situation where you might respond in their defense or is it just a case of always sitting there looking at the floor in the hope that it all goes away?'

Looking at the floor again those are your words not mine and it's a bizarre response from someone who admits themselves they avoid these scenarios like the plague.

Yes I thought I was clear on this, when there is physical violence. In Natasha's case there wasn't as you well know; it was someone shouting homophobic crap but no violence.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297138#Comment_122297138

Where did I say I 'avoid these situations like the plague?' stop putting words in my mouth.

Perhaps the fact that none of us were actually there on the night we can't really comment on the validity of Natasha's actions beyond the fact that she has the guts to try to stand up to someone doing something nasty? (be it ill advised or not)

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296984#Comment_122296984

Leaving this Judge and his sentencing rationale aside for a minute, what were the chances that 1/2 dozen other judges wouldn’t have reached the same conclusion I wonder?
They all have access to the same sentencing guidelines

And if DPP appeals, hopefully we’ll see what the true state of sentencing in such cases really is i.e- if sentence increased or partial custodial sentence introduced, what mistakes did this sentencing judge make? And why given his obvious experience did he make them?

Surely there have been enough similar cases through the years - this has to have been on the higher end of the scale.

What if they find given the guidelines, the judge was “correct” - which is less a reflection on the judge and more the state of the guidance for sentencing .

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297016#Comment_122297016

I think the overarching point though, and why gender tends to be emphasised in cases like these, is due to the (heavily) disproportionately large number of instances of serious violence committed by men against women than is the case vice versa.

Whilst it's obvious that any form of vicious assault like this on any person, male or female, should be abhorred and punished (as of course is what the law also provides), there is a clear social ill of men inflicting violence on women with a distinct frequency and severity compared to the vice versa context — not too mention that, by and large, women tend to have less chance of being able to defend or protect themselves from assault by a man.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297073#Comment_122297073

people have to ask themselves 'If I do confront this person it could end in violence or combat

We're supposed to be living in one of the safest civilized country, not some 3rd world shithole.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297118#Comment_122297118

I guarantee the DPP will appeal the sentence. Even though Natasha was told on the day that she almost certainly wouldn't.

And the High Court will say three years was the "right" level for this offence i.e. the level which the High Court would not regard as unduly lenient. It was a vicious assault targeted a complete stranger who was only trying to stop his anti-social behaviour (an aggravating factor the Judge seemed to ignore) but he didn't use a weapon, it was not pre-meditated and he did not resume the attack. The guilty plea was a lesser mitigating factor, especially because he denied everything until he was cornered by his Snapchat.

But the High Court will decide that suspending the sentence in its entirety was too lenient (and that, of course, is the real reason this case is so controversial). It would be normal for a judge to suspend a year or even two for a defendant who is in steady employment and has no prior record. But there was only one reason he completely suspended the sentence - the intervention of Crotty's commanding officer.

That is the issue which the media and the politicians are running away from. Lots of crocodile tears for Natasha, jumping on the bandwagon with lots of humbug about amending the law (which has been amended time and again and which just needs to be enforced). But no politician or media commentator mentioned the one thing for which the politicians are responsible and which would help in future cases. They should amend the Tribunal's terms of reference as necessary to fully investigate the Defence Force's response to convictions for violent crime with particular reference to these character references which are not "character references".

Instead, I expect a white-wash i.e. the Tribunal won't investigate who authorised Cmdt. Togher to give this evidence and will conclude that the Defence Forces should be much nicer to victims. The result? We will go from evidence by officers in open court to back-channel communications to the courts.

Would you recommend a career in our Defence Forces to a young person? In the past, I certainly would and we were rightly proud of them. Now our Naval Service can barely get to sea and our troops in Unifil just hunker down as missiles rain back and forth. I doubt the Tribunal will solve the fundamental issues but we will have the world's most sensitive military.

Frumy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297193#Comment_122297193

You said yourself suppose to be.

A country's economic status doesn't prevent it from having violent or drunk people.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297184#Comment_122297184

I think another judge would have imposed a fairer sentence. Thomas E (Tom) O Donnell has been letting criminals off the hook with small or suspended sentences for years

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/limerick-man-exposed-by-group-for-sending-explicit-material-to-13-year-old-girl-1561684.html

https://www.limerickpost.ie/2024/06/21/teenager-who-beat-and-kicked-homeless-man-escapes-jail-with-suspended-sentence/#google_vignette

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40887716.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2018/1120/1012208-kerry-holt-court/

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/751682/suspended-sentence-for-limerick-man-who-pleaded-guilty-plea-to-possessing-and-distributing-child-pornography.html

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/armed-robber-who-carried-out-dawn-raids-has-sentence-reduced-on-appeal-1284645.html

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/296515/suspended-sentence-over-cowardly-assault-in-limerick-city-centre.html

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerry/news/three-years-for-defilement-of-girl-15/37572266.html

Frumy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297160#Comment_122297160

These were your words in relation to these scenarios. In my book crossing the street is avoiding something like the plague.

'I live in Dublin city centre and have done my fair share of avoiding situations like that. Generally it's as simple as crossing the street when you see some dodgy folks approaching who are up to no good'

I feel you are being incredibly contradictory here. On the one hand you state her actions had 'gut's and to 'try and stand up to someone doing something nasty' but on the other hand you are claiming you would never do it yourself as you would cross the street to avoid it. So which is it?

mariaalice

An aspect that is not getting the attention it should.

He seemed to blame her, she made him do it because she told him to stop with his homophobic comments.

Nobody made him do anything it was his choice to behave how he did his father seemed to be going down the same route.

She made me do it is a big aspect of male-on-female violence.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297248#Comment_122297248

I wonder is it the judge or the court that gets reported regularly? I take your point around light sentences- that’s obvious from what you posted above- but is it because this particular court is reported from more often than another court in another part of the country?

I imagine light sentences go on daily but just how many of these trials and verdicts get reported on? I attended as a juror a while ago on a criminal trial - not one word in local or national papers - I imagine if there’s a dedicated court reporter attending the same court with the same judge day in day out, then that judge will be highlighted way more than others.

Just something to consider- I’m agreeing with you on his light sentencing - but might there be equally light sentencing judges out there but are just not reported on as regularly

Frumy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297264#Comment_122297264

Can you repost the posts saying 'she made me do it' please thanks. I haven't seen them.

Some have posted that it's best to avoid a violent erratic shouting person as they can get violent very quickly regardless of gender which he did.

It's all well and good some here saying 'you go get him girl' or 'not to be cowardly' or 'defend that gay man's honour' etc etc but it's not them having to deal with the pain and suffering after with several injuries is it? What if the injuries were far worse or life changing? Would that honour be worth it then?

LambshankRedemption

small amounts of vigilantism (such as beating the **** out of someone who is beating the **** out of someone else) is probably needed in the real world because we don’t have the money for more prisons.

That is bollox. Ireland is a very well off country. This is not the Ireland of the 1980s. We fecking do have the money for more prisons. We just don't have the political will to build them. The government is busying themselves with trying to accomodate immigrants instead.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122296933#Comment_122296933

Yes, and not only can it cost them their life, it can also severely impact their life even if they "win". Someone witnesses Crotty shouting verbal abuse at a stranger. Thinking that they should "do something" and not be a "coward" like some on here would accuse them of, they say something. Now verbal abuse has escalated into a physical fight. Crotty falls over and bangs his head on a kerb. Crotty is now dead or severely and permanently disabled. What then? One thing's for sure, boards posters and social media addicts who accuse others of being cowardly will be of no help whatsoever to you.

You are right that the people with actual fighting and martial arts experience are often the ones least likely to escalate confrontation and get into a street fight. Because they are disciplined and know the dangers and the implications - both health and legal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297109#Comment_122297109

The solution to your friend getting homophobic verbal abuse in a bar is very simple. You and him walk away and find a different bar. On the way out, you discreetly inform the security that the fella in the blue t shirt is being verbally abusive and suggest that he be asked to leave before things escalate. Let them deal with it.

Alternatively, you can confront the arsehole and risk you and your friend getting maimed for life by being glassed in the face because you wanted to protect your friend's feelings. Your choice.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297045#Comment_122297045

A friend told me yesterday they had a similar occurrence last week - his Mrs said “now you stop that, would your mother want to hear you using language like that?” - he was making lewd comments to random women on a taxi queue.

His pals pulled him away and had a word. Maybe it was a nicer person just being a dick with the drink who had decent friends, or maybe it was an older woman chastising him? Who knows.

I’d still always say something - bullies shrivel in the light of attention.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297078#Comment_122297078

Edmund Blake too - always remember that one.

Off topic bit thank you for the Mill quote - I studied him in the late 80s and outside of a question on University Challenge he’s rarely mentioned! Kudos.

Back on topic - speak up, never let these get away with it.

NiceFella

This can be debated over and back, but the major fact is we need a new and large prison in this country. Why is that constantly being put on the back burner??

This needs to be brought up with TDs immediately

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297347#Comment_122297347

I read the book SAS Self Defence. It had an entire chapter dedicated to avoiding confrontation. As you say, if things escalate in the wrong way, the law is not going to be on your side.

I'm 6'4, I have an orange belt in Judo and I wouldn't say something if someone was shouting abuse. I'd just go somewhere else. Call me cowardly if you want, I call it being sensible. If you are so sensitive that some drunk guy shouting slurs at you upsets you, then maybe being out in the city is not for you.

Frumy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297347#Comment_122297347

'You are right that the people with actual fighting and martial arts experience are often the ones least likely to escalate confrontation and get into a street fight. Because they are disciplined and know the dangers and the implications - both health and legal'

Yes pal anyone with ANY training in boxing/martial arts etc is hesitant to get involved with some drunk idiot shouting and roaring (not violent) why? They 100% understand the implications of combat. Someone will get hurt. Perhaps very severely. I don't want it happening to me and I certainly don't want to severely hurt someone either over some stupid row or some stupid idiot shouting homophobic nonsense at strangers it's not worth someone being hospitalized over. When you approach a very erratic, frenzied and drunk person they aren't the diplomatic types, they often react angrily or violently.

It comes down to

I can protect my health 100% by avoiding that person or I can 100% put my health at risk by confronting them.

AnnieinDundrum

we don’t really do victim blaming anymore. Like she wasn’t really asking for it. Just standing up, gently by all accounts, for someone else.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297335#Comment_122297335

What MariaAlice is saying is that by intervening, the perpetrator can argue that he was provoked - ergo justifying the attack (in his head).

What you have been saying over and over and over

and over

and over and over and over

all morning

over and over again

is that by her intervening, the perpetrator was given a reason to attack the lady.

there is a very thin line between these two approaches.

with, in both case, the victim being held responsible for the attack.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122297291#Comment_122297291

Yeah you might have a point, I'm not familiar with assault sentencing in other courts. It's hard to find a direct like-for-like comparison but this one is fairly close with some minor differences and he got 11 years (actually 13 but two years suspended on condition that he place himself under the supervision of the Probation Service on his release and be assessed for a domestic violence treatment program)

https://carlow-nationalist.ie/2024/05/10/kildare-man-jailed-for-violent-taxi-assault-on-ex-partner/

I think because of the protests now the DPP is compelled to appeal it and whatever judge looks at it will feel likewise compelled to sentence him to a prison sentence. They probably would have done that without the protests but now there's a bias at play as well

bucketybuck

I'd rather help somebody out than protect my own health. Each to their own I guess. The idea of not helping a lady getting beaten unconscious because I might get hurt myself, thats not an ethos I can buy into.