Are-ireland-and-leinster-the-biggest-chokers-in-world-rugby ?

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122322429#Comment_122322429

Who said they were the litmus test? And also if Leinster coming 2nd 3 times in a row makes them a choker then does that mean everyone in the world other than SA and everyone in Europe other than La Rochelle in 2022/2023 and Toulouse in 2024 are chokers as well?

It seems a very particular criteria to be considered a choker and seems to conveniently suit you which makes me very skeptical of everything you've written.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326169#Comment_122326169

I don’t agree with the op that they are chokers, but there are questions to be asked about their mentality.

StormForce13

Moving from the general to the specific, I'd argue that losing a final against a French team in Lansdowne Road after being 17-0 and 23-7 up certainly suggests to this keen Leinster supporter that some food may have got stuck in the team's collective throat last season.

However, the narrow loss in Marseilles in 2022 can't really be described as a choke and neither can the one in London last month.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326373#Comment_122326373

No there doesn't, it was highlighted for years that the 2023 had a ridiculously lopsided draw that was going to mean 2 big sides were going home early and unfortunately Ireland & France were the two who suffered that fate. You might have a case of choking if both sides got battered and were outclassed in the QF but the reality is there was only the bounce of a ball between the sides.

AbusesToilets

Leinster are like the Patriots from 2007 to 2014. Comfortably the best team of that era overall, but have conspired to find new and improbable ways to lose knock out games. They'll come good again, just a pain in the balls watching great teams trip up repeatedly

Rugbymad2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122325968#Comment_122325968

well that’s a lame excuse.basically saying u can’t win a World Cup cos u have to beat a top 4 side.heard it all now

Rugbymad2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326120#Comment_122326120

15 competitive teams lol id say it isn’t even 8 prob more 6.cricket has more competitive nations too by the way.england,sa,West Indies,India,Pakistan,Sri Lanka,Australia,Nz, and every one of those teams could win a World Cup.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326074#Comment_122326074

England weren't rated at all and finished 3rd, losing their semi by a point. I don't know anyone could understand that as bottling anything. They destroyed NZ in 2019 in the semi...

France completely bottled their QF. Their high ball defence went to absolute pieces and they lost to a team they were expected to beat with home advantage.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326662#Comment_122326662

Don’t forget some atrocious refereeing decisions though.

Former Former Former

England beat NZ in 2019 despite being underdogs, went into the final as favourites and got beaten out the gate.

In 2023, they stumbled past Samoa and Fiji, and somehow led the Boks going into the closing stages but couldn’t close it out.

In what way are we chokers and they are not?

Ben Bailey

It seems very simple to me.

If (insert team name here) win, they are WINNERS !!

If (insert team name here) lose, they are CHOKERS !!

This system, easily available to all, allows fans, who commit a relatively tiny fraction of their lives compared to the commitment that players & coachs provide, to label teams & somehow feel better about themselves.

Simples.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122327057#Comment_122327057

Isn’t it those fans, who commit their money despite committing only a tiny fraction of their lives compared to players and coaches, that contributes to the existence of professional players? I wouldn’t feel to sorry for the players who take a bit of stick when they lose, what has now become with familiarity, in finals.
And I post that as a huge fan who has travelled extensively to support our provincial/national teams.

El Vino

I don't think Ireland are chokers, I think they have advantages during 6 Nations and Nov Internationals on player welfare and cohesiveness. When it comes to World Cups this advantage is negated by the long preparation other countries get over a full summer. In the main we have done a good job organising our resources. I will reserve judgement on Leinster until after the end of next season, if the current squad are lucky with injuries they should do the double with the addition of Barrett and RG. They do seem to tighten up in close games.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122327088#Comment_122327088

Fair point. Where does that argument leave the fan who follows amateur sport, spending as much cash & effort as the follower of professional sport ?.

Is there a greater onus on professional athletes to provide value to to their subscribers / fans ?. It seems to me that both amateur and professional teams attract the adulation as winners, and the scorn if losers /"chokers" pretty equally.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122327888#Comment_122327888

As Roy Keane says in his own inimitable way “It’s their job”.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122322791#Comment_122322791

Just out of curiosity, how many Super Rugby and/or Champions Cup titles do SA sides have? 3 isn’t it? Since the game went professional, SA clubs have won just 3 trophies “that matter”. Plenty of choking going on there too it would seem, so I suppose you’d probably have a good deal of experience assessing that all right.

Just to compare, at club level Irish sides have 7 HEC/Champions Cup titles in that time. So are over twice as successful as SA clubs when “it matters”. In fact, if I’m not mistaken, senior SA clubs have just 4 trophies in all of the pro era. The 3 Super rugby titles and 1 URC title. Leinster have won more trophies in the last 6 years than all senior SA clubs have won in the history of professionalism. Bulls losing the final at home recently just further confirms it I suppose….

molloyjh

Just looked at the RC too. SA have 11 wooden spoons. 11! The highest number in the competition. They’ve only won the thing 4 times. NZ have won it 20 times! Ireland have won the same number of 6Ns titles in the last 10 years as SA have won RC titles ever.

So SA have a great record at RWCs but an incredibly poor record at senior level (club and international) in every other competition. So 4 times they’ve gotten themselves up for the big one and outside of those handful of months have failed to deliver any form of consistency or success of at all. And their clubs have been a downright failure. But somehow Irish teams are the chokers! Hahahaha!

pickarooney

Does anyone give a toss about the RC, really? It's a non-event compared to the 6N, NZ win it every year at a canter.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122330656#Comment_122330656

Well, they do only have to beat teams who choked to win it, so it's pretty easy for them. Except 2019 and 2015 of course, NZ choked those years.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122330656#Comment_122330656

They win it because everyone else is a choker though based on the narrative being created here right?

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122330656#Comment_122330656

People might care more about it if it was more competitive. NZ have won 20 of 28 of the Tri-Nations/RC. That’s why it’s deemed a non-event. SA has one of the biggest number of registered rugby players in the world. They should be a lot more competitive in that competition than they are. But as we see from Super Rugby, that massive underperformance is actually par for the course for SA.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122331060#Comment_122331060

TBF, I think most of us would make NZ favourites before that competition kicks off each year, it’s no surprise to anyone that they dominate it. It is probably more of a surprise that NZ haven’t won more WCs than it is SA haven’t won more TNs

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122330828#Comment_122330828

It’s because NZ are consistently better than the other teams, but carry on.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122331060#Comment_122331060

It's a bit chicken and egg. They have so many players they can and do have two completely different squads they use in the RC. They have players scattered around the world and still have competitive clubs at home despite the **** economy. You could make a SA team with every player from a different club and they'd have a good chance of winning a world cup.

I just can't imagine anyone in SA cares about their record in it when they have won 50% of all RWCs they've played in and every single final.

When it matters, they show up. It's a bitter pill for Irish fans to swallow but there's no getting away from it. South Africa are a big occasion team. Moreso even than New Zealand, the OG world cup chokers.

Neil3030

How much of it is SA "showing up" in RWC finals, versus SA simply having such insane physical advantages and depth, and them being best suited to thrive in the uniquely attritional context of that tournament?

Fair play to them, don't get me wrong. We certainly can't replicate their model. I'm sure we'd consider it if we could. But at the same time, a reliable ten who stays fit, and enough brawny livestock, and you're basically on the RWC ladies' tee.