Are-ireland-and-leinster-the-biggest-chokers-in-world-rugby ?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336780#Comment_122336780

There is "no evidence" to suggest they "would win" the 6N. which is what I was rejecting.

I think there is a good chance they would win it in their first 3 or 4 years, but by no means would it be a fait accompli and I wouldn't be shocked if it took them longer. By and large you can only afford to lose once to win the 6N.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336814#Comment_122336814

World Cups are easy to achieve? We can't even win a knock out game nevermind the World Cup. And New Zealand didn't play an almost perfect game against us or anywhere near it. The fact is that it was the worst New Zealand team ever to compete at a World Cup.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336857#Comment_122336857

lol, no it wasn't. We lost a 60-40 game, we have been on the opposite side of those results multiple times. It happens.

I'm not excusing it, but it is not remotely comparable to our other RWC exits.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336857#Comment_122336857

Most WC's we go out with a whimper…..

CorneliusBrown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336857#Comment_122336857

I’m guessing you’re coming from soccer? I’ll let you in on something: Short of coming first or second, no one’s cares where you ‘place’ in the World Cup. I’d rather a Six Nations than finishing third in the WC any day of the week and so would many others.

The fact you think losing to New Zealand is some kind of great shame tells a lot of where you’re coming from. They had like one knock-on all game or something.

Anyway, if Ireland are chokers then England and France must be much bigger chokers with only 1 wc between them and much greater resources

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336895#Comment_122336895

Tbh I'd take a semi final and 3rd over a 6 Nations title at this stage. We have won 6 of our 16 titles in the last 24 years. We've done everything in the game pretty much bar win a knock out game.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336881#Comment_122336881

It was and overall the standard was poor across the board. I'd say one of the worst English teams at a World Cup as well as Australia. Argentina, Scotland and Wales were really bad. I think it was worse than our usual exits because this one was actually there for the taking and we blew it.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336895#Comment_122336895

I'll let you in on something, lots of people care about continually failing at World Cups, most of all the players. Because we have a history of bottling it, the pressure mounds up on the players and we fold. We had recently beaten New Zealand by 9 and 10 points in their back yard. We were a far better team than them but not between the ears. We couldn't hack the pressure. That's the truth. I don't know how but overcoming the physiological damage of previous World Cups and finding a way to perform to our best under pressure is the key task leading up to the next World Cup.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336960#Comment_122336960

In many ways in past we didn't bottle it at world cups. We simply were in no way good enough. That isn't bottling things. Especially many of the early world cups.

We had beaten new Zealand prior to World Cup several times. They produced a top level game in world cup. Our wins totally made new Zealand change things up. If we were by far better team we would have won. We lost narrowly to a very even team who demolished their semi final opponents and lost final by a point. We didn't bottle anything.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336790#Comment_122336790

Were NZ really that far ahead outside of that 2011 to 2015 period? The French teams of the 2000s were absolutely outstanding. The French and English sides of the first several years of professionalism were also pretty bloody good. Both had numerous wins over NZ in that period. I can understand SA struggling in the RC during that dominant NZ period from 2010-2015 or so. But NZ have been beatable since then, as we’ve shown a few times now.

But if we try a more like for like comparison, SA have the same number of RCs as Australia, a team who have really struggled at the top level over the last 10-12 years. And they have almost twice the number of wooden spoons as Australia (6 vs 11). SA were continual wooden spoon recipients until Argentina joined the competition. In the 2000s, SA were wooden spoon-ists for 7 of the 10 years. They weren’t just struggling against NZ, but Australia as well. Consistently.

Either way, any team that is a favourite for the 6Ns on a regular basis should be able to manage more than a single RC title in the last 15 years. And a team with more RWC titles than NZ shouldn’t be lagging behind them as much as they are in the RC.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336857#Comment_122336857

NZ absolutely did play really well against us. We didn’t have a single scrum all game, so low was their error count. When have you ever seen that in any rugby game? It was their best performance in that RWC cycle in my, and many others, opinion.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336881#Comment_122336881

Poor start, come.back, lose... sounds like 2015.

The 2019 vintage was similar to 2007. A great team in the lead up to the world cup turns into an absolute shambles by the time the tournament comes around.

2011 - after beating Australia, an achievement in those days, the team, and particularly the coach, shat the bed against Wales, reverting to a cowardly gameplan and bowing out.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336925#Comment_122336925

England were poor, sure. But France were back close to their best. South Africa were at the top of their game. New Zealand were also a lot better than you’re giving them credit for.

Claiming it was “there for the taking” is absolute garbage when we knew we’d have to play at least 2 of those 3 sides just to make a SF. We had our best shot at it last year in some ways, but we still had a lot of quality to contend with and the way the draw and schedule panned out certainly didn’t help.

How good or bad England, Wales, Australia or Argentina were is pretty irrelevant too as they were all on the opposite side of the draw to us.

molloyjh

Yeah this is just a hot take with limited actual basis in reality. We played well against NZ in the QF and were a little unlucky in a few key moments in the last quarter. Bounce of a ball for Sheehan on the right wing and Kelleher then getting held up in the last 10 mins. Incredibly narrow margins that on another day go our way. They were excellent. Almost faultless after the opening 5 mins. And yet they still only just squeaked the win.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122337261#Comment_122337261

Yeah, 2015 and 2011 are the closest to what I would call pure chokes. 2019 and 2007 we just were not a good team going into the world cup.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122337607#Comment_122337607

In 2015 Ireland had  Paul O'Connell, Johnny Sexton, Peter O'Mahony, Sean O'Brien and Jared Payne all out

Looking at the NZ team, you would lose Carter, C Smith, Kaino, McCaw and Retallick if same injury run.

Even NZ woudn't have survived with that injury loss

B Smith, Milner-Skudder, C Smith, Nonu, Savea, Carter, A. Smith, Crockett, Coles, O Franks, Retallick, Whitelock, Kaino, McCaw, Read.

pickarooney

Against Argentina? In 2015? New Zealand wouldn't have blinked. We're talking about the greatest side to have ever played the game.

Ireland got completely caught on the hop in that game. The glaring weakness out wide (where we had no players missing), exploited by a team that had done their homework, proved disastrous.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338079#Comment_122338079

Ah, we defended very narrowly as a system and relied heavily on slowing down ball so it didn't make it to the wings. SOB, Sexton and Payne were all crucial to that.

I still think we should have won though and we should have realised we needed to adapt to not get caught out on the wings

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338216#Comment_122338216

Was it the second try that day where it was Best and Ross as our midfield shooters? We basically lost not just our most important individuals in terms of our defensive system, but basically all of our defensive leaders.

I would call 2019 a choke more than any other year though. We just started choking well in advance. They admitted after that everything was about winning that QF that year. They spoke about it at Christmas 2018.

laoismanj

Today is a perfect example. They beat us, they could and wpuld wim the 6N is my point

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122348259#Comment_122348259

Perfect example of what exactly?

They did beat us. Narrowly. We had chances to win. We didn't. It was a tight clash between two very good teams.

They don't compete in 6 nations and are unlikely to. Any time soon. So don't k ow what youe point is.

FtD v2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122348259#Comment_122348259

SA played quite well and executed their game plan.

We didnt play well, and only really Caelan Doris had a good game IMO.

They got the rub of the green with every significant decision, and scored two incredibly fluky tries.
Despite that, at home, at altitude, they beat us by a score.

It’s hardly evidence of some overwhelming superiority on their part.

techdiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122348259#Comment_122348259

That's some stone cold, iron clad logic right there.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336599#Comment_122336599

What a load of crap. There are more New Zealanders in the PI teams than there are PIs in the ABs.

Rugbymad2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122348430#Comment_122348430

altitude is that an excuse.u do realise only one starting player from the boks plays at altitude which is WLR

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122337673#Comment_122337673

Replace them with B Barrett, SBW, Vito, Cane and Romano and that team beats Argentina.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122349542#Comment_122349542

Yeah I was at Argentina match in question and also at New Zealand v France the night before, they put 60 or something on France, take any 5 players away they'd still beat France handy and they'd take Argentina out too. That squad was awesome though, better than anything around for any nation at the moment.

Yeah_Right

Reading this thread, I've seen a few people suggest that RSA don't care about anything other than the RWC and I don't think that's true. Yes it is the most important thing but saying they dismiss everything else is underestimating how big rugby is in South Africa and how much the Boks mean to them.

It's like NZ. The RWC is top of the pile but there is an expectation that the national side dominates. Always. No way would saffa fans or SARU accept 3.5 years of defeats on the possibility they might win the next RWC. Remember Rassie became the Bok coach shortly before the 2019 RWC because results were unacceptable.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122350596#Comment_122350596

Of course it matters to them. Look at the intensity they're bringing now to the Irish series, and any of the lions series, 97, 09, 21.

Also they play new Zealand a lot who for most of professionalism have been absolutely top notch, might explain why they don't win tri nations and rugby championship all that much. They've only beaten new Zealand once in WC, in a final, by a point.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122352806#Comment_122352806

Actually they've beaten NZ twice in finals (1995 and 2023) and once in a bronze playoff (1999). NZ have beaten them in a QF (2003) a semi (2015) and a pool (2019).