How useful is the battery warranty, really?

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122325781#Comment_122325781

Similar glass half full argument for ICE cars.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326375#Comment_122326375

Can we get a national guarantee that my 2007 M5 will retain its full 507bhp indefinitely?

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326416#Comment_122326416

Didn’t know there was a government and car industry push on for people to purchase vintage high powered ICE BMWs but hey if there is, why not?

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326375#Comment_122326375

We know reduced milage due to battery degradation is a feature of EVs - that’s something most people will accept

Do we? What do you think the average degradation of batteries is after six years?

…but with these kind of stories,

These kind of stories about one model that is well known for having a particularly bad battery chemistry that pretty much baked in degradation which only increased with the amount of fast charging the car was exposed to, is really not indicative of modern EVs. Granted that it's not helping the case if people don't actually do any research beyond listening to Liveline.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326478#Comment_122326478

approx 13.8% but will increase as battery increases with age

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326416#Comment_122326416

For me thats not really valid comparison. You really want EV batteries to be made in a way they can be more easily repaired if faulty from a consumer right to repair point of view.

I think in this case with the Leaf the manufacturer needs to be taken to task.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326592#Comment_122326592

My reply to that post you’ve quoted was sarcasm which was all it deserved - my view is simple- you are either supplying an 8 year guarantee on the battery or you’re not- if a car manufacture has too many get out clauses then it’s not worth the paper it’s written on and therefore we as consumers should see a greatly reduced price for EVs as if buying second hand it’s us that’s taking all the risk

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326561#Comment_122326561

Based on what? Current models of EVs are showing very little battery degradation as understanding and development of battery chemistry increases as well as methods of charging. Charging to below 100% is now the norm with modern EVs which has seen negligible degradation of batteries when implemented. Low single figure percentages after three years is becoming the norm.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326622#Comment_122326622

SEAI website no less

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326639#Comment_122326639

I meant the "will increase as battery increases with age" bit.

Assuming you mean health of a battery is indirectly proportional to its age, that's not the case. The main factors affecting the health of an EV battery have been determined to be charging patterns and type (AC or DC) rather than age.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326680#Comment_122326680

not according to Geotab

https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/

Flinty997

Theres a randomness to degradation. With a few outliers here and there.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326697#Comment_122326697

The only actual data they could use was age since they didn't and couldn't get accurate charging pattern data. So it's a very blunt analysis from that point of view. If your two data inputs are age and state of health, that's going to be your only available comparison metric.

And you'll note that they also refer to charging method, state of charge, charging cycles, etc. as other factors.

So although it's useful data, it's not definitive since it only considers age as a factor in what they admit is a multi-factorial issue.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326739#Comment_122326739

And tell me this then - if the so called “experts” can’t agree on how a battery will age beyond 6 years and at what rate, where does that leave the secondhand car buyer- so much for them

extra-ordinary_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326561#Comment_122326561

Lithium Ion batteries, for best life should go through as much as possible full charge and discharge cycles. Has this changed with new technologies or are people's charge pattern behaviour leading to increased degradation of the cells?

jonnygee

Somehow this thread keeps drifting back to degradation which is not what it's about. It's about what happens if my battery develops a fault during its 8 year battery warranty.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326765#Comment_122326765

Please. There's a difference between experts disagreeing and a data driven analysis where only one data point is used. The Geotab people actually agree that method of charging and type of charging as well as a number of other factors affect battery longevity. They just didn't measure them.

They set out to measure how much degradation a number of different EVs showed after different lengths of time. They give a number of different reasons for the degradation. That's it.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326833#Comment_122326833

And remind me what has all of this got to do with a car manufacturer not honouring a battery guarantee?

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326772#Comment_122326772

The answer to that is likely to be found online in the various manufacturer's warranty documents or summaries. Here's what VW say.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326335#Comment_122326335

The HV would keep my hands in my pocket😎

Cuauhtemoc

Getting back to warranty. You would like to think looking at that that it's 8 years. I mean some degradation is to be expected. Id rather that it was 8 years for battery failure not degradation.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122325781#Comment_122325781

Your position was there's no fleet of older EVs to test battery longevity on, I countered that there is a fleet of EVs around since 2011 (or earlier) which can be used

I didn't suggest that cars which have been scrapped should be ignored, in fact I would say that data is extremely valuable

Given that car manufacturers went from a 5 year warranty or battery rental model to an 8 year warranty roughly around when a lot of EVs were turning 5 that would imply they have some degree of confidence

I'm not suggesting that we as consumers have reliable data on battery longevity, but manufacturers should have that data available and the warranty they're offering now should be a strong indicator of what they're expecting

However, if you want to start up a public battery monitoring project then I'd be happy to participate 😄

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326928#Comment_122326928

This seems to cover failure too:

8.
The Nissan lithium-ion battery and battery capacity limited warranty
includes coverage for defects in materials or workmanship for 96
months/100,000 miles (whichever occurs first) as well as protection
against capacity loss below 9 segments of capacity (out of 12) as shown
on the vehicle’s capacity gauge for a period of 96 months/100,000 miles
(whichever occurs first). For complete information concerning coverage,
conditions, limitations, and exclusions, see your Nissan dealer and read
the new vehicle warranty information booklet. 

Cuauhtemoc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326959#Comment_122326959

To some degree. There's another battery failure case on the Irish EV Facebook where the battery seems to have failed but as the capacity is still reading greater than 9 bars they won't cover it. Laughable really. Poor form.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326592#Comment_122326592

Ohh I agree. As I posted previously in this thread. Shame on Nissan.

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326982#Comment_122326982

Seems like they may have changed their warranty recently. What I posted above is current, but I've seen older posts on various forums that state that the warranty was just for degradation and not failure. So older Leafs may fall into the latter category.

Pretty much all EV manufacturers cover failure primarily. Degradation only if it falls below a certain level within a timeframe (usually 8 years).

Flinty997

There's been a good few cases with ICE cars were theres been something covered by a recall in the UK but hasn't been extended to Ireland.

I feel nissan need to dragged across the coals in the media on this issue.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326197#Comment_122326197

I feel like there's some context we're missing from the story

One poster earlier said they got a faulty cell replaced without any issues, now we've another story of the exact opposite

Not pointing the finger at the old lady with the Leaf, I've often felt there were several garages which seem to avoid warranty work

So I'm wondering was the repair refused without even going to Nissan Ireland?

Or was there some other context we're missing?

I agree there needs to be further clarification from manufacturers about what exactly is covered by the battery warranty. For example are faults covered or degradation only? What level of degradation is covered, and what are the exception? Does a lot of fast charging invalidate the warranty for example?

As a general remark on warranties, we could really benefit from some consumer laws requiring warranty information to be presented in an easy to read table instead of the usual small print.

Something similar to the IPID document that insurers were forced to produce for their policies to allow them to be compared

A simple table of what events are covered up to what limits and the exceptions would help a lot of people

Of course manufacturers would fight it tooth and nail because they like being able to wriggle out of warranty claims as much as possible

BrianD3

It might not just be Nissan, here's the Renault warranty for the UK, I can't find detailed T&Cs for the Irish one and I'm not spending anymore time poring through the UK one but did pick out the following relevant bits

Base warranty: 3 years/100k miles

Electric powertrain warranty: 4 years/100k miles. Covers

1. Motor
2. Reduction Gear
3. Charger – Box Interconnection
4. EVC Controller
5. Inverter
6. DCDC Converter
7. Connecting High Voltage Cables (between these components)

Traction battery warranty: 8 years/100k miles

Traction Battery Warranty Limitations
The Traction Battery Warranty applies from the Registration Date of the Vehicle as follows:
- Zoe E-Tech, Megane E-Tech and Scenic E-Tech 100% electric: 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. Subject to the age and mileage restrictions set out above, the warranty covers the battery if it falls below 70% battery minimum capacity

https://cdn.group.renault.com/ren/gb/transversal-assets/terms/EV-models-registered-from-1st-January%202023-with%20Scenic.pdf.asset.pdf/57f5b2ca34.pdf

CMOTDibbler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122327268#Comment_122327268

Renault = Nissan.