Categories prizes in line with handicapp

con___manx1

The last comp I played in somebody had 48 points Stableford second 47. I play off 11 in order for me to win I'd have to shoot under par over for 18. Little chance of that. I'd like to know from the people of boards are your golf clubs categorising the prizes or bunching all levels together like my own golf club.

Sorbet

45 typically wins in my club for golfer of th day and then there will be a division winner by handicap ranges.

billy3sheets

41 or 42 most commonly wins overall, occasional 44 or 45 but not often. We have 1st and 2nd overall prizes then 4 divisions split evenly by handicap. Depending on the numbers, there's a 1st and maybe a 2nd prize per division. Have around 130 in Sunday competition this time of year.

spacecoyote

We switched to categories a couple of years ago, maybe the 2nd year after WHS was introduced

finglashoop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058358516/categories-prizes-in-line-with-handicapp

Similar happened in elmgreen not so long ago.

Prizes are overall winner and then split into divisions.

MojoMaker

Surely be to God a wining score of 48 means the handicap secretary got it arseways or the player is sandbagging to some degree.

con___manx1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122349041#Comment_122349041

Second was 47 In that competition. I'd say who ever came second was sickened. It very disheartening playing against that kind of players. Beating their handicap by 12 and 11. I think my golf club is one of a few that doesn't categorise prizes.

awec

if it takes 47/48 points to win your competitions on a regular basis then I would think it’s a matter that should be raised with handicap committee?

coillcam

Our club has criteria for comps that eliminate regular high scores. Save for the genuinely rare outrageous worldy.

We've a limit of 28 max playing handicap. If you're over 28 then you are capped at that number of strokes. You also need a full developed index of 20 cards on your record plus 5 counting comps in the last year. Juniors are also in a separate category.

You will regularly see winners in the low 40s but no runaway cricket scores each week. A member shot +4 recently off 18 playing handicap in a 4ball recently which was a real outlier. He dropped 4 shots off his index afterwards - great to see WHS cover 4balls now.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122353092#Comment_122353092

Capping at 28 does seem a bit unfair on the lads who are genuinely 29+ handicappers, essentially gives them no chance of competing.

dan_ep82

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122353806#Comment_122353806

Just need a separate category for them. I don’t think they should be unable to win anything but a 45hc having a good day can be 50+ points, that’s simply not possible for the likes of a 5HC

kyleman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122353092#Comment_122353092

Sounds like a very fair system as long as anyone over this handicap can be accomodated with a category for same .

Innish_Rebel

Wow 48 points (12 under net) - that's 60 watch on the PGA (also happening too often now!!!)

I've just had a look at the last 7 Sunday comps in my own club 41/42 or equiv (-6 net) has won or would have won almost every time. Top 2 then 3 categories created by dividing the field by 3 and adjusting the handicap window to capture 1/3 in each category.

Even our midweek open off the white tees with normally generous pin placements a couple of 44's aside similar scores will win…

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122353806#Comment_122353806

Pretty much what dan_ep82 said. You have huge difficulty with that category competing against low index players in every club. The potential score variance is enormous at higher indexes. For example, someone can have two shots on a medium difficulty on a par 3 and make a birdie for 2 gross. That's 5 stableford points and a par there is 4 points. If that happens two times in a round it's a massive boost to a scorecard. Trust me it happens more than you think :).

Correction on the capping at 28 btw, I think it's just for overall prize. You can still win category 4. There aren't that many players in that cohort tbf but most clubs are doing the same thing. The general point has been that there is no incentive to improve your golf or maintain a realistic handicap. The alternative is that anyone can play unlimited casual golf for the year, play a handful of counting rounds and turn up on a Sunday/open/major to turn in a cricket score. It's happened several times in the first two years of WHS in my club.

To give an example, I was relatively new and in my first full year of golf. Didn't have 20 cards yet and hadn't broken 90. My playing handicap was 19 and I shot 84 for 43 points to win a comp. Today I wouldn't win 1st but get a minor prize for best score of the day.

spacecoyote

This is from Lou Stagner and shows the likelihood of beating par by certain amounts depending on handicap range.

It's a good illustration of the issue

tayto lover

We give Winners, second and Category prizes and then a best Gross prize.

Russman

We base it on the number of entries on the day. So it could be if there's between say 75-100 entries we'll give 1st in each class and an overall, if its between 100-125 there could be 1st and 2nd in each class and an overall, or maybe 1st and 2nd overall and just a winner in each class. They're not the actual numbers, there's a matrix with the different permutations.

As for winning scores, we rarely see anything over 40/41 points. You get the odd one, but tbh if someone offered you 38/39 going out, you'd take your chances with it most weeks, certainly in your class. Even our Captains was won with 78pts for 2 rounds - good scoring but hardly excessive I think.

I do think WHS has made those mid to high 40s scores far more likely, even to be expected. The pool of potential winners is basically the whole field these days, whereas under CONGU, realistically IMO only a fraction of that ever had a chance teeing off. If a hundred guys tee off, there's a fairly good chance one of them is going to have one of those good days. I guess you're then into the subjective questions like should a guy who takes 101 shots, playing off 36, win the main competition ? Maybe yes, maybe no. I can see both sides tbh. The whole idea of handicapping is that everyone can compete against everyone, but IMHO WHS is deeply flawed.

RoadRunner

This chart visualizes the problem well @spacecoyote that the baseline handicap is not dynamic when it needs to be.

In marathon running terms

• Person A, who typically finishes marathons in 2:42:30, cuts their time to 2:36:15. Probably world news?
• Person B, who usually completes marathons in over 8 hours, manages to run one in 6:47:27. Good accomplishment! But to "match their achievement" it understood that Person A cannot cut 1.25 hours off their 2:42:30 baseline time.

In golf, 5 shots better than your 35 handicap baseline is good, but it is far from equal to the same achievement as 5 shots better than your 4 baseline handicap is, which is possibly going to be 2 or more shots better than that person has ever shot in their whole life.

Many thought that a new handicap system being introduced a few years ago would address this 😒

Just as a theoretical human limit of running a marathon might be, i don't know, 2:20h. A theoretical limit on a golf course in perhaps low to mid 60's could be taken into account. Perhaps if it was there would be then a way to guage the achievement of the person who normally shoots 70 suddenly shooting 69 versus the achievement of the person normally shooting 105 suddenly turning in a 104. Two special achievements, but in many peoples books the two achievements are not equal.