RTÉ Investigates Girls in Green

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356360#Comment_122356360

I’m not blaming victims, I’m simply making the point that not doing this sooner, and waiting over a quarter of a century to do it will put them at a disadvantage and wasn’t their best move. That’s called critical observation yes, but not blaming as you allege.

There is absolutely no victim blaming in my post whatsoever, I’m detecting rather an over emotive reaction by yourself though above. I’ll quote any of your posts, you don’t get to dictate as to how I engage in discourse on boards… Stick me on ignore if you don’t wish to see my posts.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356309#Comment_122356309

My problem is not people seeking justice, if they’ve been wronged, it’s waiting two and a half decades, over a quarter of a century to look for it……

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356350#Comment_122356350

They have enabled themselves to be disadvantaged by doing nothing in the intervening years.

Did you happen to read the article at all in the opening post?

Lisa Curran has similar memories from her time playing international football for Ireland while Cooke was in charge.

"It was never hidden," she says, referring to the homophobia. "I don't know why anyone would think it was hidden. It was open."

An attacking midfielder from Dublin, Curran was one of the few Irish female players in the 1990s to become an overseas professional, spending three years playing in Italy.

One of the reasons she came back home in 1997 was that she wanted to "expose" Cooke.

She believed he was homophobic, overly aggressive, and was having relationships with some of the players.

Unsuccessful in her efforts, she said she left the camp. "There was no point, and I walked away from it."

By it’s own admission, the FAI was not focused on women’s football at the time.

According to the then-CEO, Bernard O’Byrne, the Association took a ‘hands-off’ approach to the women’s game.

"Within football it was as though they operated in a little bubble over there," he said.

"There was no agenda against them, but there was no great interest in ladies football from the majority of people that were sitting around the board of the FAI. It's just the way it was in those days."

It’s difficult today, let alone in Ireland in the 90s, for anyone who is the victim of that sort of behaviour, to make a formal complaint. The idea that it’s only coming to light now as something you would have an issue with is ridiculous if you actually consider the full context of the circumstances involved, let alone the idea that anyone has “enabled themselves to be disadvantaged”. Not an unusual take on the situation though, 25 years and the passage of time doesn’t seem to have dulled that mentality.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356431#Comment_122356431

Victim blamer - it’s plain for all to see

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356309#Comment_122356309

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356360#Comment_122356360

Ireland was a different time then, plus not to try and demean the women but most seem to be from a working class background they would not have the education/background/connections to bring any court case. Even if they were brave enough at the time.

However, using throw away phrases to curtail debate such as "victim blaming" is not helpful.

It did occur to me that the investigation by RTE has attracted way more attention and views than any woman's soccer match ever has in Ireland.

If women's soccer does not move away from the equality/persecution angle women's soccer will never be taken seriously by the masses. However, I can understand why it makes a good story in the current climate such as America "metoo" and the scandal in the Spanish FA.

But the documentary had a real cheap feel to it in my view. Almost as if the women themselves were being exploited for the sake of a story. However, no doubt it could be dressed up as empowerment depending on a person's viewpoint.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356532#Comment_122356532

You do know theres a criminal investigation - but also, there doesn’t have to be a crime committed for exploitation to take place- you do understand that concept don’t you?

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356487#Comment_122356487

Nope, sorry, you are being disingenuous, I can be critical without blaming, plain for anyone without an agenda to see :)

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356584#Comment_122356584

your posts are clearly victim blaming

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356331#Comment_122356331

You're right, nothing much can come of it. The women involved were at least the age of consent. Of course there was a power imbalance and the organisations should have had strict policies in place forbidding relationships between staff and those on the course. But they didn't and thus no laws were broken. Two reputations have been trashed though and that's about the sum total of consequences.

anewme

As someone who was starting work in early 90’s, harassment was rife. I remember one lady whocomplained about a dodgy gropey client, and the boss was almost talking her out of believing it happened, as he did not want to lose the horrible hands on customer.

As a teenager, I recall a friend concerned about a dodgy uncle who had come home from abroad. She did not want ti be left with him, so I was brought along to go to Dunnes Stores.. He kept asking if we had boyfriends and what we did with them.

we went into a newsagents where a young staff member was putting prices on magazines with a pricing gun (anyone remember the prices on things) Anyway, she was bent over doing the pricing and the dodgy uncle ran right you behind her and grabbed her arse! The girl got such a fright that she nearly jumped through the roof. Your man was there laughing. We would have been 16 and he was early 30’s maybe. You just dodged the gauntlet of stuff like that.

Don’t get me started on working as a lounge girl as a teen- don’t know who was worse- staff or customers. That was scary.

Babyreignbow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356698#Comment_122356698

The dodgy uncle< I was 23 when I moved into my neighbourhood, surrounded by cousins and aunts and uncles, my father had just died and I was handed the keys. I had people in regularly helping out and offering support and my aunts husband (5o's) a big yolk of a man came over one day and sat next to me leaned on top of me and stuck his tongue in my mouth. To say I was shook would be an understatement and at the same time, I was trying to not make a big issue out of it because I was new to the neighbourhood so I took it as a misunderstanding on his part. I said it to my mother, my aunts sister which led to them falling out. The aunt felt responsible and not long after she got cancer and died. My mother and she never spoke after it. I'll never forget the tears I shed at her funeral because I felt everything was my fault and her adult children to this day make my life miserable.

As it was I had skipped the country to get out of a violent relationship so I was well versed in gbv and had I known then it was just the start of it I'd probably never have come back to Ireland. A couple of weeks later one of my fathers friends did the exact same thing. He held the carrot of a job in a local school as a promise for my obedience and took it away after I spoke to someone about what he did.

I know it's a lot and there are so many other stories that's it's hard to put into words without feeling like it's whoring for attention when all you want to do is talk about it or have someone understand. I was led to a website last year organised in connection with the drcc called we speak where you can do just that.

griffin100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122355846#Comment_122355846

That is a genuinely frightening attitude to have about child safety. It’s like the attitude that surrounded priests for years - the ‘that couldn’t happen here’ type of response to abuse.

Explain to me how child protection protocols keeps abusers away from the GAA? I’m vetted for a number of sports including GAA - not having a criminal record and doing a child protection course does not mean automatically I’m not a risk to children. I’ve seen absolute scum bags in the GAA being allowed to coach junior teams. There’s a coach involved in a team close to us who has been in and out of jail and last year got a year ban from the GAA. He’s now coaching under 16 girls football (LGFA, not GAA). My own girls won’t play matches when he’s on the sideline because of the level of abuse he gives them (ah but sure he’s passionate about the parish).

Take a look at this guy - https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/swimming-coach-who-filmed-girls-changing-jailed-for-three-years-1554452.html

I was also been involved in swimming for a long time from local to national level with my kids. I’ve done the same courses as this guy did. Child protection in swimming is much more stringent that the GAA and yet child abuse still happened. I’ve been abroad with kids swim teams where teams and coaches from the continent laughed at the extent of our child protection measures. We once shared a pool with a German squad that had one male swimmer about 13 years old and one male adult coach, with the rest being young girls. The male coach and the 13 year old boy shared a hotel room. They seen nothing wrong with this. At the same time we had to have an adult on deck at all times to monitor coach / swimmer interactions and coach behaviour. Coaches were not allowed to have lunch with kids unless a team manager was also present. Is child abuse more prevalent in Ireland?

Babyreignbow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356859#Comment_122356859

I expect that most of the safegaurding protocols implemented here are as a result of the child abuse in the roman catholic church. I don't know if it means we're more prone to it but the endemic nature of it in these institutions has left it's mark.

remember this guy?

Deregos.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356947#Comment_122356947

I'm not subscribed but I did catch the name before it was obscured with ads. I remember this nasty fcuker alright . . another swimming coach. This is what Wikipedia states about the case.

"On 4 September 1992, Frank McCann killed his wife, Esther McCann (née Leonard), and his eighteen-month-old foster-daughter Jessica McCann (who was also his biological niece) when he set fire to their family home in Rathfarnham, Dublin, Ireland. The couple had been trying to adopt Jessica, but the process had been repeatedly delayed, due to reports to the adoption agency that Frank McCann, an Olympian swimming coach, had fathered a child with a seventeen-year-old student of his who had special needs. Fearing for the damage to his reputation if it came out, McCann resolved to murder his wife and foster-child. Found guilty of both of their murders in 1996, McCann is currently serving a life sentence in Arbour Hill Prison."

celt262

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356859#Comment_122356859

That German thing sounds as creepy as hell.

Anyway back to the GAA and the question you posed "how does child protection protocols keep child abusers away from the GAA". Well in short it doesn't not unless they have previous and and its on record.

That is why they have procedures in place and one of them is that there must be two coaches present at all times and a coach must never be on there own with any kids(s). All the procedures are there and if they are not been followed that's where an abuser may get an opportunity.

In relation to the scumbag in your club i presume that there is a female coach with the team also which is required under safeguarding. Is she standing back letting this guy give the kids abuse. Where is the children's officer in the club have you gone to them with your concerns and put in a complaint?

Hermy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122353789#Comment_122353789

I wonder why the victims didn't complain in the last few years?

Because it's incredibly difficult to do - you can never be certain how people will react when you tell them, you don't want to cause trouble, and the fear of not being believed can be overwhelming - it's a lot easier to just say nothing and bury the shame for another day.

griffin100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122357448#Comment_122357448

We were dumbfounded when we were chatting to the German swim coach about how he was able to bring a team of kids away to a Spanish training camp with no other adults present and share a room with a swimmer. We got talking to him as he asked us why we were always on deck during training sessions (Swim Ireland have a rule that there must be a parent on deck ‘POD’ at all sessions) and he was shocked at the steps we had to take around child safety. It got us thinking about why this was so important in Ireland but not so much elsewhere. My own view on the historical abuse in swimming in Ireland and the behaviour of coaches is that it’s linked to the culture that was in place in the sport years ago. Old fashion coaches were like gods, they were not to be questioned and they ruled with an iron fist. That’s mostly died out now but you still see the odd older coach in that bracket. That sense of power around young kids is not a good mix. Newer younger coaches are a different breed.

On the GAA thing it’s not my team that has the coach I mentioned involved, it’s a team from the nearest town. There seems to be a fear of him from club officials and referees that allows him get away with his abusive behaviour which has to be seen to be believed. My son plays Junior C and that’s like the Wild West but this guy at u16 girls is worse than anything I’ve seen at Junior C. At a match we were involved in where he was coaching earlier this season we were leaving as he got into a physical altercation with the father of one of his own team - I believe he had shouted at her ‘why are you so shite’ and that set her father off. In the same match at least one of his players left the field in tears and refused to do back on. Yet we played them again a few weeks ago and he was still coaching and still roaring abuse. It really is reflective of poor club oversight.

I suppose my point is child protection measures are great and are needed, but never assume that they prevent bad behaviour.

Gusser09

It goes on in plenty of other countries too though. US Gymnastics for example is just one. That German coach is an accident waiting to happen. All it takes is one innocent remark and you are finished. I can guarantee that wherever you have poor governance and poor protocols in place it just makes it easier for the unthinkable to happen and go undetected.

Ireland isn't perfect at all. You will never be able to prevent all abuses from happening but the minimum should be stopping the obvious criminals from getting involved with children and vulnerable adults.

As part of a coaching team for underage camogie I will not take a session without a minimum of one other coach present and a designated female in attendance. You just don't do it.

Babyreignbow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122357453#Comment_122357453

This is really important, very often you're dealing with people in positions of power or influence and I linked to the McCann story because it reminded me how dangerous talking can be. I heard someone use the phrase once that 'hell hath no fury like a man about to be exposed', it's a very real threat that keeps people in places of fear, silence and isolation.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122353727#Comment_122353727

It's unlikely to spread into GAA since female gaelic games are run by two women led organisations LGFA and the camogie association.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122353559#Comment_122353559

Never felt comfortable with Gay after watching the anniversary special with him, Pat and Ryan. Sinead was on, telling a story about being 16 and Gay slipped his hand down the back of her skirt/trousers and pinched her arse. The guy was as bad as those he pontificated against.

Babyreignbow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122358905#Comment_122358905

not entirely true, she was 21 and it was her first visit on the LLS and he didn't put his hand down her trousers or pinch her arse.

https://youtu.be/055Inr77JUU?si=Gfi-qgLh0ctdiigG

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122356563#Comment_122356563

I have some form of legal background, so yes. But there could have been a criminal investigation without the programme. Was the programme necessary?

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122359360#Comment_122359360

I’m not sure there could have been - my understanding is that the RTÉ/ Independent investigation that lasted ma y months, was the catalyst for the criminal investigation - I stand corrected if it wasn’t - but what’s clear is that early in the investigation, many of the women believed they were the only victims - they didn’t realise there were others - I imagine the strength in numbers and the reassurance they weren’t alone and that they would be believed gave them the strength to take things further

Donald Trump

Thread about (what looks like fairly strong) accusations of abuse by FAI coaches.

Most posts about the GAA……………anyone there for the last of the hats, scarves or agendas.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122359283#Comment_122359283

There's something pretty off about a 52 yr old man with very high social standing rubbing his hands up and down the back of a 21 yr woman woman.

As a hetro man the only times I can think of that a man would placed his hand on a woman's back (other than dancing) is when he is already intimate with her or is testing the waters to see can he get intimate.

Once you enter into that invisible line around a person's personal space you have crossed a line.

He might be holding her hand and being all father like with her, but rubbing her back is the small head leading the big head.

Babyreignbow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122359776#Comment_122359776

I'm not suggesting that was the case at all just pointing out that she wasn't 16 and he didn't put his hand down her clothing and pinch her arse, which is an entirely different set of circumstances altogether.

It kind of reminded of my father telling me about his visit to the late late show many years ago as a guest, he wasn't much of a GB fan but said after talking with him backstage he's a very different fella, said he smoked great big cigars and washed them down with large tumbler of the finest whiskey. Very chatty and charasmatic and definitely a sense of old boys club, men with lots of power, as they do in Monstrose.

Babyreignbow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122359724#Comment_122359724

https://www.thejournal.ie/all-ireland-hurler-clare-assault-6431466-Jul2024/

like this one?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122360047#Comment_122360047

That's up to you if you want to make probably false equivalences to squeeze in your own particular agenda on top of every other issue. You could. alternatively, start on thread on it rather than trying to derail or obfuscate this one.

Babyreignbow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122360101#Comment_122360101

I believe it was your good self who inferred a GAA agenda in a FAI thread. Does this not suit the topic?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122360109#Comment_122360109

Maybe it was the 10 or so posts that explicitly typed the word "GAA" that led me to infer that people were talking about the GAA