Getting out of electric

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497164#Comment_122497164

If someone doesn't want to change their habits they should definitely just stick with an ICE. Because with new tech there is a learning curve and a change of habits.

The public charging is still new tech especially in Ireland. It's immature industry but it's improving rapidly at the moment. It's a bit convoluted at the moment though.

Very few go back to ICE. Some will. I'm quite happy to have one car an BEV. I'm not sure I'd commit to have two EVs at the moment. I will say after having a BEV I've no interest in paying a premium for a PHEV. I'd have a BEV or a non hybrid ICE.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497682#Comment_122497682

Not everyone has a meb.

On mine it's set on the car to a default plan to charge to 80% basically whenever it's plugged in. I don't touch anything in the car before charging. I do have to enter a pin on the wall charger though.

But I had a lot of faffing about before I worked out how to do that. I'm not always charging at the same time.

antfin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497597#Comment_122497597

That's not fully correct. You borrow the entire €33k and pay interest on €33k, not the €22k. The GMFV is just the residual left unpaid at the end and the minimum amount that the car can be worth at the end of the term assuming milage and conditions terms have been complied. If the GMFV is higher than the value of the car then it makes sense to just return the car. If the value is higher than the GFMV you can pay this residual amount or use the balance above the GMFV for a further trade in.

Flinty997

If you are doing a lot of mileage it might have big penalty on the value, for PCP especially in BEV.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497597#Comment_122497597

I think this lady explains it very well.

ACCOUNTANT EXPLAINS: Should You Buy, Lease or Finance a New Car - YouTube

PCPs are complicated and ideally you want to be sticking with the same brand to see your Guaranteed Future Value maintained. Whenever I have changed brands in the past, I have lost more money trading in a car on a PCP. At the same time, there's no good way to buy a car. Often people pat each other on the back or gloat about keeping a car after the PCP is up and paying it off through a credit union loan. High APR much? This is where you will loose a lot of money because we all know that the same person will sell the car after 6 years. The best way to buy a car is to spend a lot of money on it in the first three years and keep it long term. If you are going down the PCP or leasing route, then you need to have a long term commitment to a brand, know where the market is going and what cars to be buying and not be buying. I think EV owners were caught with their pants down. At least those who bought a new car in 2023. I was one of those people but I plan to stay EV so I'll be fine in the long run as new EVs are 10k cheaper now. If I was thinking about buying an ICE or a Hybrid, then I'd be in trouble.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497718#Comment_122497718

We’ve been using two EVs for over two years without any issues. I don’t understand why my wife wants to buy a hybrid, except that she’s been hearing concerns about her ID4’s battery life. She insists it’s her decision alone, and I think she just wants to avoid public chargers when she occasionally travels outside Leinster for work. Honestly, I’ll be amused to see her first petrol bill and watch her refuel the car every Sunday in the rain. I won’t be helping her. In my opinion, ICE cars are pointless nowadays unless you’re buying something fun for enjoyment. We live in a world full of pessimistic old men who resist change. These are the ones who get listened to, like Harry Metcalfe and Jeremy Clarkson. If they say don’t go EV, everyone listens and sticks with an ICE.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497874#Comment_122497874

PCP doesn't require you to stick to a brand, future value will always be maintained as it's just a future amount that you have to pay to keep the car. It's a fancy way of saying your loan has a balloon payment at the end.

The extra bit is the ability to walk away from the car if an offered trade price is lower than the balloon payment. Not many people should be in that situation, if they are it means the financer has done a really bad job of sizing the final balloon.

PCP isn't very complicated, but it is explained really badly by dealers, they've obfuscated it so much to try and hoodwink consumers into coming back every three years.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497899#Comment_122497899

If you want to avoid public chargers on long routes ICE is still a better option. I like the BEV but it's not without issues.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497908#Comment_122497908

I’m not sure if I understand you. Every car on a PCP has a Guaranteed Future Value, which is essentially the balloon payment. The dealership that sold you the car must offer you that amount or more when you trade it in for a new one. I’ve experienced garages not connected to the PCP offering me a lower value for the car, reducing the deposit I have for my next car. This is why it makes more sense to stick with the brand you originally bought from. For example, if I took an ID4 to a VW dealer, they would offer me much more for it than a Nissan dealer would if I wanted to start a new PCP with either brand. It’s all about getting the highest possible value for your car to increase your deposit for a new one, right?

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497455#Comment_122497455

standing on wet/cold forecourts to refuel, diesel smell on hands after refuelling etc.

I've never owned an EV so I've no idea about the practice of public charging.

But stop making out that refueling an ICE is such drama and such a onerous task.

I'ts a 5 minute job, that's usually conducted under the cover of a forecourt.

So there's no getting wet and the last time I recall being cold when filling petrol was in the severe cold snap of 2010 when it was -10 in the middle of the day the pump was freezing to the touch.

I've seen lots of EV chargers in places like J14 and the Obama plaza and not one is under cover like a fuel forecourt.

So you've more chance of getting wet starting and ending the recharge process than filling an ICE.

Gerrymandering reborn

Sorry but you get can 1000-1500km of range in a Diesel within 5 mins. I don't understand how that is inconvenient

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497979#Comment_122497979

To be fair, refueling a car twice a week for a long distance commuter is a pain in the neck. Its cold and wet in the Winter with all that sideways rain on the East Coast. A lot of smaller forecourts have queues too. Its much easier to charge from home as most EV owners appear to be doing. The EV chargers on Irish motorways are still quiet and very fast in most cases.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497989#Comment_122497989

Diesels are horrible to drive and running costs are too high. I think that's what makes them inconvenient to anyone who has gone full BEV.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498022#Comment_122498022

And you’re wishing that on your wife?

Stay classy there.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497934#Comment_122497934

With any trade in deal you'll get a mix of offers so it's worth shopping around. There's no guarantee that a VW dealer will offer you more than a Nissan dealer. If Nissan want to get you into their car they'll make you a good offer. Dealers want people to think they're stuck with a brand, they shouldn't, you should always try and find the best deal they can for a car that they want.

My last PCP deal ended by selling the car back to the original dealer for more than was outstanding and then buying a new car from somewhere else, it's not quite as simple as bring in a car and take the new one away.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497744#Comment_122497744

Ok, all cards on the table, I've never done a PCP so wasn't aware interest would be on the full 33k in my example. This is a good example of why everybody should read the finer details of the product they sign up to

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497874#Comment_122497874

I think whether a loan, a PCP, or paying in cash suits somebody or not is a personal thing

PCPs are complicated and ideally you want to be sticking with the same brand to see your Guaranteed Future Value maintained. Whenever I have changed brands in the past, I have lost more money trading in a car on a PCP

The GMFV is Guaranteed, clues in the name, you shouldn't loose regardless of brand loyalty… Sure the dealer that sold you the first car might give you a better trade in on the car but that has nothing to do with PCP

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498031#Comment_122498031

His wife has chosen not to listen to ndos's advice and is instead being influenced by her brothers who do not have any experience of owning an EV. ndos is not wishing this on his wife, just saying that it's her choice and she can own the consequences.

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497934#Comment_122497934

What car were you trading that you were only getting offers below balloon payment due at the end of a PCP? This balloon payment is designed to be way below the minimum value of the car, you must have been v unlucky to have suffered such high depreciation? Was it a Taycan or Audi e-tron?

You are correct in that in general, a VW dealer will bid more for a VW and a Nissan dealer will bid more for a Nissan etc, but it’s the same bid they are making regardless if you bought the car for cash or pcp or via a credit union loan originally.

The main benefit with PCP is that it often comes with a lower rate of interest than you will get in the bank or credit union.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497989#Comment_122497989

I can refuel while I sleep. To refuel a diesel I'd need to be awake and usually deviate from my commute. So for me electricity is far more convenient to refuel than Diesel

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498127#Comment_122498127

Some companies will manipulate the GMFV to reduce the monthly payments. You can compare two cars at €35,000, 5% interest and €5,000 deposit.

I can give you a €10k GMFV and have you pay €658/month or a €20k GMFV and you pay €392/month. A lot of people would think the €658/month car is more expensive, but they would have been in a much better position to keep or change the car at the end of the three years. I seem to remember VW had some very high valuations on the ID range to keep the monthly costs down.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498099#Comment_122498099

Yes, you’re correct, but my main point is about the deposit. Regardless, you’ll need to pay the original dealer for the balloon, and the amount you receive for it will determine your deposit for the next PCP. With an EV, I assume you’d get a lower offer if you took an ID4 to a Nissan dealer. However, VW would likely offer a better deal since they sold you the car and have some responsibility to support it.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498123#Comment_122498123

Did you read the post?

Honestly, I’ll be amused to see her first petrol bill and watch her refuel the car every Sunday in the rain. I won’t be helping her. 

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498123#Comment_122498123

Indeed, I realise it might be petty, but after putting in the effort to thoroughly research a topic, it’s disheartening to watch those close to me seek advice from sources that can't get their head out of the metaphorical bucket of oil and won't buy an EV because that p***k up the road in number 9 who thinks he's great has one. 😂

liamog

You might find a lot of this changes from 2025 as the new emissions regulations mean brands need to change their fuel mix. In 2024 none of the major groups need to sell you an EV to hit the targets, in 2025, the new rules will mean there are incentives at the group level to get you into a more efficient car. Nissan would rather give your local dealer €4,000 behind the scenes to get customers into an Ariya than paying credits to their competitors to pool their emissions.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498127#Comment_122498127

I’m a big fan of PCPs. I wouldn’t consider using a credit union loan to buy a car. I once switched cars on a PCP too quickly and ended up losing money. This happened during a time when used cars were overpriced but undervalued by dealers, who were trying to make big profits due to a shortage of new cars, likely because of the pandemic. To be fair, I might need to retract my comment about the balloon payment. My perspective is more about the car being worth more to the dealer who sold it to you. Apologies if my previous advice was misleading or off the mark. You're probably right that no dealer will ever offer you under the GFV for a car.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497673#Comment_122497673

Used Circle K chargers for the first time recently, just tap to pay and off you go, the way things should be

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498212#Comment_122498212

These will be great once implemented. However, I wonder if they might be a bit of a wasted investment right now, given the current resistance to EVs. They could remain underutilised until the situation hopefully improves. Still, imagine how fantastic it would be to have chargers at every Circle K!

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122497597#Comment_122497597

I know how a PCP works, when I was signing up to it I felt like it was bordering on a scam and I still feel that way

My issue is more around the deceptive marketing terms. For example GMFV sounds like the manufacturer is guaranteeing you'll have a certain amount available for trade in against a new car

The reality of course is that it's just a final payment, and if the car is worth less than that then you're left holding the bag.

You can always hand the car back, but then you've no car and presumably you bought a car because you needed one and didn't have a load of money you needed to get rid of

Anyway, my point is that there doesn't seem to be any real benefit to the customer from a PCP. It seems that it's just being used as a way to disguise the true cost of a car

You'll see a lot of manufacturers offering cars for a few hundred per month which seems like a good deal until you see the final payment

EDIT: To illustrate my point, let's say you decide in your example to keep the car at the end of the PCP deal. So you need €11k, that's just under €500 per month for 2 years that you need to save on top of the car payments

Let's say the monthly payment was €300, now the true cost of the car is €800 per month because you're saving for the final payment on top of that

In this case, what is the benefit to the customer, you don't really have a low monthly cost. Your only real choice is to hand back the car and hope you've some leftover money to afford the deposit on a newer one

This is generally accepted to be the main purpose of a PCP, to get customers into a new car every few years. But it starts to fall apart when the cars end up in negative equity

For context, there were ID.3 owners being offered trade ins less than the final payment from VW dealerships. As far as I know some of them were willing to buy a new VW but the finances just didn't work

Hardly encouraging customers to buy a new VW

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498436#Comment_122498436

When going into a PCP deal I treat it as, here's what I'm paying per month, here's what I need to have in the bank for the next deposit. That way your covered in the event of an unexpected depreciation taking out any equity you should have built up.

If you do decide to keep the car at the end of the PCP term, then I'd say your better off using the money you saved for the backup deposit and take a small loan.

If you are willing to save for the full value of the balloon payment during the PCP term you were probably better suited to a different financing package such as a PCH, or personal loan.

If the car is worth less than the GMFV, you should be able to buy a used version of the same car for less than the final balloon payment, which again should be achievable using your saved deposit and a loan.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122498436#Comment_122498436

I'm confused by a few points here.

The reality of course is that it's just a final payment, and if the car is worth less than that then you're left holding the bag.

The balloon payment and Guaranteed Future Value (GFV) are the same, so the dealer must offer you at least that amount for the car. Am I missing something here? If the car’s value exceeds the balloon payment, the excess can be used as a deposit for your next vehicle. If you return a 3-year-old ID3 on a PCP to VW, I’d be surprised if they said, “sorry, your deposit was eaten up in depreciation.” Considering that a new ID3 is now cheaper than it was three years ago, the numbers should balance out, allowing you to get another ID3 for the same monthly payment, if not slightly higher.

You'll see a lot of manufacturers offering cars for a few hundred per month which seems like a good deal until you see the final payment

The final payment isn’t really a big deal. If your plan is to pay it off and own the car outright, you might have been better off buying the car on Hire Purchase (HP). People who choose Personal Contract Purchase (PCP) usually intend to trade in and replace their car in three to four years at the end of the agreement.

EDIT: To illustrate my point, let's say you decide in your example to keep the car at the end of the PCP deal. So you need €11k, that's just under €500 per month for 2 years that you need to save on top of the car payments

This is what I meant earlier about people having unrealistic expectations of saving up to pay off the car after a PCP (Personal Contract Purchase) agreement. That’s not how it works. If your goal is to own the car outright in five years, you should consider buying it on Hire Purchase (HP) with a better finance package and choose something within your budget. The advantage of a PCP is that it allows you to drive a car you might not otherwise afford, but you need to switch to a new car after three years. Otherwise, it’s just an impractical finance deal to be in. Too many people get into PCPs with unrealistic expectations of what to do at the other end of it.

Let's say the monthly payment was €300, now the true cost of the car is €800 per month because you're saving for the final payment on top of that

This is where a HP would be more suitable to that individual.

In this case, what is the benefit to the customer, you don't really have a low monthly cost. Your only real choice is to hand back the car and hope you've some leftover money to afford the deposit on a newer one

Referring back to my earlier post, VW needs to honor their PCP contracts. If customers return after three years without a deposit due to severe depreciation, VW should provide incentives and support to help them transition into another EV. I wouldn’t consider giving them another €6,000. If there’s no deposit in the car, I would express my dissatisfaction and likely request a finance deal to pay off the car over an additional 2-3 years. I'd understand is someone wanted to go from EV to ICE and VW couldn't support that with a good deal.