Attempted burglary Aghamore shooting

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122376654#Comment_122376654

It could possibly be

Kaybaykwah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122374384#Comment_122374384

Yes, but you’re nice enough to chat up…

Kaybaykwah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122374419#Comment_122374419

The driver of that van could easily have ended up "Holyhead". Lol

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122376650#Comment_122376650

Your citizens arrest is foolproof

Is shooting a stolen van even a crime, I feel it was a balanced response

Large bottle small glass

The farmer is in much worse position today than yesterday.

Once these gangs have you on there mailing list they keep coming.

I've had a few encounters over the years with this type of crew; usually in winter time at night. I've had the gun out twice, it seems a useful deterrent for a while before they seem to drift back to their regular routes.

The trick seems to be letting them know you have a gun and you might be just mad enough to use; but you don't ever want to or you don't want to be heard threatening to use it.

Saying that the night a jeep pulled in the gate at midnight I wasn't thinking rationally as I chased them up the the road. Hard to make good decisions when your blood is full of stress hormones and your heart rate and BP are through the roof. Thankfully we parted company when I less than calmly explained my rifle capacity was a bigger number than their group size.

I didn't see any of them for a few years after but your sleep isn't quite as peaceful knowing they might be calling. It's a scourge in rural areas to be honest.

Galwayguy35

These scumbags have no fear of the Gardai or the courts so its not surprising when someone takes the law into their own hands.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122376748#Comment_122376748

When the Gardai stop these scumbags they end up in court and potentially jail themselves

We have ended up complaining about the Gardai but when they do their job we complain about them as well. How many videos online do you see of d**kheads shouting abuse at Gardai and they can do nothing?

It's time we gave the power back to the Gardai.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122376650#Comment_122376650

Well not necessarily. The existing jurisprudence was written into statute in the 2011 Act as mentioned above. Technically it didn't really change the position, but putting it on a statutory footing did make it clearer. It also explicitly says that there is no obligation to retreat. Although it appears to allow honest belief as a defence when fatal force is used. In general, as also mentioned above, honest belief is not enough for cases of fatal self defence but it is for non-fatal. It's quite a short Act if you would like to read it:

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2011/act/35/enacted/en/print

Regarding your comparison between holding the man at gunpoint vs firing at a van when he wasn't in it, I think the latter would be seen as less serious. In this case, it appears to have worked. The man was in his 60's and may not have had the training or skill that you possess to be able to control a situation where it was highly likely that transport containing additional criminals would arrive before the Gardai.

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122374932#Comment_122374932

Do they not rely on the mobile vans these days?

It seems pointless to tie up guards clocking speeders if there is less risk just taking a photo or whatever they do.

Things are looking up on the roads, I went into town adhering to the speed limits all the way yesterday and wasn't overtaken at all.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122375690#Comment_122375690

What does your last sentence mean?

arctictree

Why aren't lads with multiple burglary convictions just electronically tagged like in other countries? We have the technology.

machiavellianme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122376792#Comment_122376792

We need to build more prisons too. Ideally with more than enough room to house them for their full sentence term and have capacity for all their pals/kin/colleagues to join them.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122377378#Comment_122377378

Can't put peopel in prisons when everyone says they are lovely people

Every single scumbag drug dealer is described as a lovely person and a lovely family

A clown speeding in a car and killing himself and 3 others is a thread on here full of excuses

Problem here is Irish mentality of the "cute hooer" etc……scumbags are scumbags, stop making excuses for them

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122377157#Comment_122377157

Yes but the bleeding hearts and Sybil Liberdees groups would be jumping up and down over it.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122377084#Comment_122377084

They are super anal about it...

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122378001#Comment_122378001

Gun safety? Isn't that a good thing?

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122378027#Comment_122378027

Are you just looking to point out the obvious or are you confused or what

People accidentally shoot themselves and others all the time…

This is why responsible gun owners are so anal about gun etiquette

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122378049#Comment_122378049

I'm wondering about your motivation as to why you are using the word Nazi when describing responsible gun owners who are taking precautions to ensure they and others don't get shot? Seems strange.

Donald Trump

Any truth to the rumour that that was Padraig Nally's John Deere in the background? Maybe he thought he was being robbed again. Seems a bit too big of a machine for a Mayo man though.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122376927#Comment_122376927

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122377378#Comment_122377378

Sure ,no problem.Would you like a 5 to 10% income tax hike to pay for all this? Like the overcosting and over time estimate to deliver of the project by 100% as seems to happen with most govt/private partnership projects in Ireland? Then to pay for the Warders, medical staff, etc etc you need to staff and run these multiple jails?

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122376927#Comment_122376927

Yes indeed it does say this.BUT point is,are you willing to bet your farm and freedom a judge, jury and State prosecutor is going to see it that way when it involves material possessions? Stuff can be insured and replaced, human life is not so much. Sure, you might be 100% in the right with the law,but its going to need a trial to prove this, whenever that might be with our judicial systems and backlogs. Meantime you and your family are now going to be in the glare of full media attention as the "farmer who shot an ethnic minority member of the travelling community while going about his legal business of robbing the place!" You are going to be under extreme emotional and mental pressure from this trauma,you are going to find out real quick who your friends are and those who will run a mile from knowing you. Your shooting irons are gone for the duration of the trial, and will be a job to get them back too even if you are declared 100% innocent, so what are you going to use for defence if said ethnic minority decide to come back for some retribution?

Firing at a fleeing van…Where was the threat to the man's life at this point? They are "Fleeing" the scene so the threat is minimal to non-existent to justify the use of deadly force,unless they were deliberately trying to run him down or were waving a firearm out the window at him? Be the first question I would be asking as the prosecution.

Having had a bit of experience of these cases in Ireland,i can tell you it is a case of playing 3-dimensional chess, blindfolded in a tumble dryer. Not one self-defence case especially using weapons of all sorts is the same as the next. What you think might be a utter guilty case can be decided on as justified and one that is seemingly clear cut as the self-defence has the defendant going down for a stretch.

Things like; defining reasonable [and justifiable] force IE proportionality esp when using deadly force definitions of this in the law so even brandishing a firearm might be seen as excessive force in this case.

To conclude. What I'm saying is this.IF you are going to use a gun for self-defence in Ireland for your property or yourself and family.You need to sit down and THINK, long& hard of the consequences, the legal implications and ramifications to you and yours long before you get to the point of having to drop the hammer on someone breaking into your house or property. This involves also going to have a chat with a lawyer who has some specialist knowledge in both firearms law and self-defence and ignoring the bar stool and internet experts or even some lawyers like former lawyer Joe Biden, whose advice of "firing a shotgun through the door " is going to get you in VERY serious trouble.I wont even go into what sort of training you need just to be able to use a firearm effectively in a home defence situation and that most firearms in Ireland are useless if not downright dangerous for home defence in reality.No wonder using a firearm for self-defence is called in the gravest extreme for a good reason.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122380356#Comment_122380356

Well I couldn't really do much more than skim that rant. The law is the law and judges implement the law. If the law allows you to use reasonable force as you honestly believe - up to and including fatal force - to protect your dwelling then that is the law. A judge cannot say "well actually you were within your legal rights to do this but I don't like the law so I'm going to convict you anyway".

As for "fleeing van" now you are making stuff up. Nobody every mentioned any van fleeing. In this case the man fired at the van, perhaps to disable it, or perhaps just to frighten them, while the thieves were trying to pack stuff in the back. Quite a smart move - as evidenced by the fact that they were not able to make good their getaway in said van. Far smarter than the post I was responding to - which I presume you are supporting given your rant against my response - which suggested it would be preferable to have confronted the first man and held him at gunpoint and took the chance on an unknown number of his buddies arriving at any point - who themselves might have been armed. So I would not be taking your advice or advising anyone else to pay it much heed. There was a man in the news last year (case pending who did directly confront intruders to his land and we all know how that ended.

Eudaimonia

I’m not one for conspiracies but the attempt on here to move the dial from international issues to domestic crime is irritating me. The other thread that comes to mind amongst others is the cocaine destroying rural Ireland thread.

Do the crime aficionados on here think moving the attention of posters way from far more pressing and dangerous concerns away from international issues to domestic ones will succeed? It’s like comparing the danger of a chihuahua to a Rottweiler. One is isolated and on a micro level the other is far more existential and larger.

Finally, it appears to me the SF supporters on here seem to think their love affair with crime and the rogue like spirit of Irish criminals compares to international crime. It pales in comparison and doesn’t legislate for the gulf in danger between the two. That’s not to say some or many of them are involved in international crime but when it hits state level like in the case of Hamas and Israel it rings alarm bells.

I wish said posters across many threads would desist with their macho attempts to portray the Irish crime as somewhat comparable to international crime.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122380356#Comment_122380356

You are incorrect in your interpretation of the law if I remember right. Pursuit is allowed. There was a case about ten years ago where a hone owner pursued a thief and beat the crap out of him with a golf club. The gardai charged him with assault but the judge ruled he was covered but the 2011 act. Not only was non retreat allowed but pursuit to recover property was allowed

Witcher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122381123#Comment_122381123

There was no such case.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122380537#Comment_122380537

As for "fleeing van" now you are making stuff up. Nobody every mentioned any van fleeing. In this case the man fired at the van, perhaps to disable it, or perhaps just to frighten them, while the thieves were trying to pack stuff in the back.

That is called "Reckless discharge of a firearm" under Irish law and is punishable by 18 months or an 8thousand euro fine. You do not discharge firearms as a frightener or a threat as it is use of deadly force, operative word "deadly" IOW the threat has to be grave and no other option that your or yours is under immediate and deadly intent of harm. Any prosecutor will simply say"so you feared for your life and belived deadly harm was going to be used against you,Why didnt you shoot to kill then? as it obviously wasnt that a serious a situation that you believe a "warning shot" was justified?"

Really??? Explain please Don where was the use of deadly force was justified in shooting at the van fleeing or not. Which BTW has been reported as such since they drove away from the crime scene until the van gave out from the gunshot. One shot was aimed directly into the drivers side of the windscreen. It would have been a killing shot if he had been using heavier shots like 00 or 000 buckshot. Where was the threat to this man's life that required such action?

The law is the law and judges implement the law. If the law allows you to use reasonable force as you honestly believe - up to and including fatal force - to protect your dwelling then that is the law. A judge cannot say "Well actually you were within your legal rights to do this but I don't like the law so I'm going to convict you anyway".

Correct ,but he also has to judge on the evidence provided by both parties and what happened at the time. First question that you obviously missed in my post you "skimmed over"is to define" reasonable/ justifiable force" in this case. Is someone using reasonable or excessive force in firing two shots into a vehicle to stop the theft of their property? One clearly intended to incapacitate the driver and the second to disable the vehicle. That is what the crux of a self-defence argument is here,add onto this can he claim he was in fear of his life when he fired these two shots and would any "reasonable person" be acting the same manner .On the outside of this case it looks like no he wasn't in fear of his life, wasn't being threatened and these people were leaving the scene of the crime. Hard to justify self-defence IMO

But hey,maybe you are some hotshot lawyer who deals with this kind of cases on a day-to-day basis in Ireland. So maybe you can explain how reasonable or excessive force is defined in an Irish court? Because if you can then I'll hire you as my personal legal brief as you have cracked the legal point of ambiguity that has plagued these cases for years.

I would not be taking your advice or advising anyone else to pay it much heed. There was a man in the news last year (case pending who did directly confront intruders to his land and we all know how that ended.

Well you would be pretty much a dumbass to take anyone's advice off the internet. Another point you missed while "skimming over my rant".I did say if you intend to use a gun for self-defence to go and get lawyered up on the law and the consequences of using potentially deadly force when you decide to go play Rambo.

As for that case you allude to. Boards.ie rules prohibit us from commenting on current cases before the courts for fear of prejudicing the outcome by media commentary[Yes Boards is considerd such].So lets leave that one out of it until it is dealt with by the courts.

Manic Moran

Grizzly's position seems to be most correct. Though there may be a matter in application, however, I'm less convinced by his exhortations against the use of a firearm as a matter of law.

The Defence of the Dwelling Act largely codifies the judicial opinion of Judge Hardiman in DPP vs Barnes about five years prior. There are a few tweaks, for example the act specifically includes some exterior areas adjacent to the dwelling, but overall, the verbiage is very similar to that used in the court case. One item which is identical is that the standard is not "reasonable force", but instead "reasonable as the person deemed it to be", but this was expanded upon in Barnes more than the Act does. Judge Hardiman observed that the position of the homeowner is not that of a juror making a calm assessment after the fact, and that the burglar "must take the homeowner as he finds him." He goes on to explain that a person is not likely to be thinking particularly rationally when faced with a malfeasant and that it would take evidence of actual malice to fix the homeowner with culpability. So if the homeowner happened, for whatever reason, to have a firearm to hand at the time, there seems little, per se, to affix particular blame just because he used a firearm.

However, Grizzly is, of course, also entirely correct that each case is taken on its individual merits. One thing which is different between Barnes and a the Act is the the Act specifically authorizes the use of force to protect property (this was not addressed in Barnes), so the mere fact that the van was fleeing need not make it an open and shut case. Plus the fact that the hole is in the direct front of the van's hood may also bring to question the direction the van was fleeing in. There are so many variables, as he points out, it's going to take a full "report" at least, if not trial, to know whether or not the man was legally "right".

sock.rocker*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122377378#Comment_122377378

Billions in surplus. The best thing the state could possibly spend that on would be around 20,000 new prison beds, effectively multiplying the current capacity by 5x / 6x. Mandatory five years minimum for any violent crime, and life in prison for repeat offenders.

My mother lives alone in the countryside and has had people scouting the place out to rob. She spent a fortune on alarms and cameras and lives there in fear of something happening.