Common sense for once? Straw incorporation to be suspended for this year?

Donald Trump

Looks like the powers that be might have finally made one obvious sensible decision

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/suspension-of-straw-incorporation-measure-for-2024-proposed/

Always seemed a bit stupid to be paying lads to chop it instead of an alternative of paying them to incorporate the straw back as FYM the following year.

alps

It's a brain fart by a Minister, incompetent and flapping for votes.

The price of straw was going to dictate that any utilisable straw would make more in a bale than chopped.

There was no need to suspend the scheme.

OSR and Oaten straw will now have to be baled or chopped for nothing…a real bad hit for the cash planning of an already wafer thin margin ed business.

This is confidence sapping for any commercial farmers, to go into contract and have it pulled before payment. (Some already have straw chopped) Nobody's going to believe a word this Minister/Gov/ dept ever come with again.

A slight change he could have made was to remove the clause whereby if a farmer wants to withdraw from the scheme, he wouldn't have to withdraw all their submitted acres. Pay on the OSR and Oats and what's already chopped.

What's been done, if not reversed, will drown the tillage sector of any belief that it is needed in this country.

The rest of us livestock lads better start growing a few acres of grain in future if we continue with the need for straw.

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058360137/common-sense-for-once-straw-incorporation-to-be-suspended-for-this-year

Its bulls**t, if the department brings out a scheme and farms plan around it, it has to be seen through, with the enforcement and limiting of p and k allowances by the above tillage farmers should be chopping as much as possible anyways, the muckswap arrangement just dosent work given haulage distances etc

Siamsa Sessions

Time will tell - it might be only a kite-flying exercise by the Minister to see what the reaction is.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122392857#Comment_122392857

I suppose the swap depends on the part of the country. We're surrounded by tillage here. It wouldn't have to be back to the person who sold it. They were already talking about lads having to organise to find tillage men to take slurry and dung for nitrates anyway. Why not give them the money at that point instead of when cutting it.

I'd say there could also be a few lads who would have signed up for the measure only to be seeing their neighbour getting big money for selling the straw too and be happy enough to be able to get out of it. Did there not have to be a 2-way commitment at the start? i.e. if you signed up to do it, you weren't allowed to change your mind and sell it later.

They can still chop it if they want their P&K!

Say my name

There was a farmer from a different country was buying straw from a wexford ploughman and he was bringing it in from Spain. That's how international straw was getting.

And the farmer was getting grief from tillage farmers from the Republic of Ireland.

A chat gbt wouldn't have dreamt up the above. The farmer had to defend himself that he was doing so as he had an idea there'd be a scarcity so was getting in early to secure supply and it was the wexford ploughman was importing it in from Spain for sale on. The farmer grew his own but needed more for his enterprise. Straw from Spain would go throughout europe but be kind of a new development for here. Same importers would be bringing in French hay for the equestrian market.

Donald Trump

I'd say it will still be scarce. A lot of Spring crops this year. Wouldn't be taking a lot of straw off it. It would be a bit silly to be paying a tillage man a hundred quid an acre for chopping a handful of bales of straw while lads who need it can't get it for love nor money.

It can be hard enough got around here at the best of times anyway. The straw men from the North take an awful lot of it ……and pay cash somehow ….. so that leaves it difficult to compete! There are lads around here that buy it on the flat and bale it to sell to the Northmen and they pay cash because that is what they get when they sell it. I always wondered how buyers up there can get away with buying it in for cash. Anyone know?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122393095#Comment_122393095

Save the environment!!!! Chop the local straw and we'll transport it in from Spain instead.

TinyMuffin

terrible news. We’re 1 of the few around here that don’t chop any. And always bale straw dry. We were banking on at least €30 a bale this year to feed the hungry dairy men.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122393135#Comment_122393135

The 30 quid probably hurts the small man and beef operation a lot more. The Dairy man isn't milking off feeding straw and he has his cubicles and slats and tanks. 30 quid a bale is too much for bedding animals. I think it will still be scarce.

TinyMuffin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122393147#Comment_122393147

most goes into diet feeders.

148multi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122393106#Comment_122393106

There's a man near me buys and sells straw and hay, all cash.

That doesn't mean there's a fiddle.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122393292#Comment_122393292

No it doesn't. But try telling that to Revenue if you are audited and they ask "why did you not pay tax on that particular 10k profit you made? …. ok, you say that wasn't profit because you spent it on hay and straw ….. grand, just show us the receipts and money trail"

148multi

I know a farmer that pays substantial bills in cash, they have no issue with it, but they have a big issue with one recipient who didn't declare it.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122393328#Comment_122393328

Paying cash only really works if you have a source of cash yourself. Some lads around here that do straw for the North men also pay other bills in cash to get rid of it. Other than that though, there doesn't really seem to be a source of cash for a regular farmer.

(That's assuming he is paying any tax at all …..)

grass10

Straw chopping scheme should never have come in all it did was distort the market the 40 an acre for setting tillage crops this year should never have come in as all grass men were badly affected by the late spring aswell but got no compo it makes no sense to keep throwing money at 1 sector just because you have weather events

I know of several lads that have set late crops of corn in marginal land this year just to get the 40 an acre to set it 100 an acre straw money and if the ground is wet are hoping to get the lump sum they got last winter for not harvesting their crops none of these lads are interested in producing crops just drawing down soft money and their is plenty in this boat the govt have to stop all these silly schemes and just let farmers get on with whatever is profitable you should never be farming commercial basing your business on getting x amount per acre from the govt

148multi

In fairness you can't blame farmers for chasing subs, not that I'm agreeing with it.

bogman_bass

as a beef man the begrudgery and sense of entitlement on this thread is off the charts.

If the dept suddenly pulled the rug under my feet with my SCEP money I’d be raging!

Awful short sighted thinking

giveitholly

What about anyone who has already chopped their straw this summer? Is there any comeback for them?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122394046#Comment_122394046

There was no begrudgery. In fact, it was suggested that they be given the same money but in a different way - for incorporating the resulting FYM rather than chopping the straw! That way, they'd actually get more nutrients back, the beef (or dairy, or even sheep) man would get the use of the straw and it would also help with their nitrates.

Or, if you prefer, give them the 100 quid per acre if they don't incorporate their straw. Everyone wins. It just seems stupid to have a measure which will exacerbate a shortage.

blue5000

Bit late by the minister in fairness, a good few organic tillage farmers chop straw to maintain fertility, they’re not happy about the proposal either.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122394903#Comment_122394903

It was late, and it was stupid because it was not a scenario that was a surprise. I mean they already knew about issues given that they were giving the extra money to sow it a few months back.

They could still pay the money but make the actual incorporation optional. That would be a triple benefit to the tillage lads. Subsidy in the pocket, less diesel burned from chopping, more money for selling the straw if they want to. How many will still chop it for the soil fertility benefit then? I'd say close to zero.

The amount cut so far is minimal, and it wouldn't make those people any worse off either than if it had been left as is.

grass10

Over the last couple of years the government brought in 4 schemes that imo should never have come in and it's the same as giving a child sweets and then taking them away the child will always kick up a racket

The 4 schemes were straw incorporating scheme, ploughing up grass land and setting tillage crops irrespective of the quality of the land, lump sum for not harvesting crops last autumn and finally 40 an acre to grow tillage crops this year what these schemes achieved was a shortage of straw with an inflated price for the straw that was sold, a shortage of silage as grass land was now being used for tillage instead of grass, an inflated land rental market because fellas that knew very little about tillage foolishly though that with free money it was a no brainer. Where I come from their has been a lot of extra land put into tillage in the last couple of years by existing tillage men dairy farmers and some beef men and all this has resulted in is a big shortage of silage land I am not begrudging anyone getting money but the reality is most of these lads are actually worse off financially by chasing the supposed easy money and the government needs to stop interfering in the normal farming sector and you find over time that lads will farm whatever system is profitable

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395715#Comment_122395715

People complain about dairy men driving up prices …… giving all these types of supports is also helping to put a ceiling on availability of land and a floor on prices. When people need help they need help - that's fair enough. But when it's flagged in advance, people will naturally have to play the game and make the most of them. The beef man has to compete with both the dairy man, and the tillage man potentially getting the guts of 150 quid an acre in supports regardless of, and separate from, whatever he sells the actual crop for. Just give them the 150 an acre but don't force them to sow it if they don't want to.

It is at least capped, but I think that larger tillage farmers tend to be able to spread out their limits across family members.

Waffletraktor

Maybe these stock farmers who regularly can’t fodder and bed their stock without being bailed points too a cull of the national herd is necessary on welfare grounds.

Say my name

I see a point made about tillage farmers giving out about livestock farmers.

It's not long ago a 4x4 bale of straw was selling for 3 euro and a farmer was lucky to get sale. The same amount of livestock were in the country if not more. The scheme broke arrangements and contacts between farmers and tillage farmers could afford and did tell farmers to phuck off. Which they did. I've the same relationship with my supplier but it's through blood. My supplier pointed next door to a neighbour who went all tillage from being mixed and had a local buyer for straw till last year he told him to do one and he availed of the scheme and chopped the lot with glee.

The price went to 35, 40 euro a bale maybe 50 euro delivered in the west of ireland. Farmers were skimping big time on bedding. Straw was being imported from England with livestock farmers there giving out about the chopping scheme in Ireland taking their supply. Recently imports from Spain with tillage farmers here complaining of this situation putting what they saw as their built up artificial price for straw under threat. Artificial is not a slur, it was by the scheme and even there was were bales of straw put in at a local charity event which were bought by another tillage farmer for 50 euro. It's to keep the price up.

What happens now. Those that have a taste for chopping will continue so. There'll be broken relationships anyway so may be better for this year and years. A long time chopping min till farmer where farmers were brought to see chopping has been baling and selling himself these past few years while others broke relationships. Reason he gave was too much carbon in the top of the soil and needed get some away again.

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122393106#Comment_122393106

plenty around here would tell you of years they couldn’t give straw away and lads would drop you if they didn’t need it or they could get it cheaper elsewhere

There’s some amount of work in straw to get it right when the weather isn’t with you, it’s a hell of alot easier to throw on the chopper even without getting paid for it you have the p and k value from it. I don’t blame tillage lads one bit for signing up to it with all the shite that goes on with straw prices when it’s plentiful

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122399130#Comment_122399130

They can still chop it. Nothing is stopping them from doing it. A hundred quid an acre is too much of a distortion though in a year when it's probably going to be light with all the Spring crops anyway.

We've taken straw off the same man for the last few decades. The odd time he wouldn't have any but when he has it, we bale and take all of it. I'd say those type of arrangements are more common.

GrasstoMilk

straw isn’t scarce because of the chopping scheme

It’s scarce because of a poor year last year and a lot of tillage area going into grassland

My bil will sell anyone straw if they book it with him, but if you don’t take what you order or mess about with price or payment don’t come back looking for straw from him again is his view

Waffletraktor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122399155#Comment_122399155

Is he not meant to make money then or are you incapable of making enough to pay him?

Growing feed combinable crops are a waste of time unless you do more than sell at harvest and food in general is getting to be an expensive hobby in the western world with competition that doesn’t have the same production and regulatory standards.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122399259#Comment_122399259

He can make whatever money he like. He is always paid market rate. I know the glory days of area aid have diminished for the tillage men, but there is no need to try bringing more back in if they are incapable of making enough to pay their own bills. (Now, I don't begrudge them - I'm only throwing your own language back at you!)

Do you not think it's a bit silly to be paying one group to do something which artificially exacerbates an existing shortage for others though? Fair enough in a regular year, but in a year where there is already a shortage. When there is a fodder shortage then lads get help to buy it. They don't pay the lads who have additional bales money to compost it instead.