2022 sick scheme thwarting

2breal

Employers are using a loophole in the legislation to deny their employees what was mandated in the 2022 Statutory Sick Scheme. The working poor are 50% of the workforce in Ireland and they are being driven into penury by unscrupulous employers. Please sign and share

https://chng.it/JGzgB2pGKZ

Mrs OBumble

Can you explain how this loophole works?

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058360721/2022-sick-scheme-thwarting

You are going to have to explain your problem better before anyone will click into your petition. Whats the loophole?

CramCycle

I took would be interested in knowing what the issue is rather than hitting a click bait link

CramCycle

So rather than an answer in thread or an explanation by PM, I got what reads like a spam message claiming employers are exploiting a loophole that a) no proof it exists and b) if it does, yet to get one real life example it is being exploited.

2breal

All over Ireland many low paid workers are being driven further into poverty.  Unscrupulous Employers the length and breath of the country are exploiting a loop hole in the Statutory Sick Scheme 2022 to thwart the legislation and so deny the workers their statutory income when they are sick. Many employees have no option but to come to work sick, or leave their families without the necessities. More than 50% of the Irish work force is made up of low income workers.

The employers are claiming their policies are better, all have a period of waiting days, which reset with every absence. So with a 5 day waiting period an individual sick for 3 days in February with a cold, must provide a medical certificate at the cost of E50 gets no pay for the days they were absent. Nine months later that same individual needs to have eye surgery an out patient procedure, they are advised to remain at home for a day. Once again they receive no pay for the two days. 

THE AVERAGE IRISH WORKER PAYS:       INCOME TAX 20 TO 40%,  PRSI 4%,  VAT 23%, MOTOR TAX  E180 TO E350 DEPENDING ON THE VEHICLE,        PROPERTY TAX,                                      STAMP DUTY.

THE AVERAGE CORPORATION IN IRELAND PAYS 12.5% ON TRADING INCOME AND 25% ON NON TRADING INCOME

According to the CSO in 2023 Income taxes of €31 billion are almost a third of the total. Value Added Tax (VAT) was the next largest tax revenue, with almost €19 billion collected in 2022. Corporation tax revenues were €23 billion and there was €20 billion received from PRSI and other social contributions.  

CLEARLY WE ARE PAYING MORE THAN OUR FAIR SHARE WE NEED THE Tánaiste Micheál Martin TD TO PLUG THIS LOOPHOLE IMMEDIATELY.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122409932#Comment_122409932

What loophole? You haven't outlined how employers are avoiding paying statutory sick leave. I'm an accountant and I can say that all my clients are paying the statutory sick leave even though many small businesses can't afford it. Unless you explain your so called loophole properly I can't see many signing your petition.

2breal

I have put the details below from the section in the act, some employers, usually the large ones with a lot of low income workers have a policy 1-5 years service gets 10 days sick pay after a 5 day waiting period with 6 to 10 years service 15 days after a 5 day waiting period with 11 to 20 Years service 20 days after a 5 day waiting period. they are saying this is better and the WRC is supporting it. Each time an employee is sick after 2 days they have to provide a sick cert usually costs 50 euro, the 5 days resets with each sick absence. so what has happened is that employees are caught, no longer able to collect social welfare sick payment because it is assumed that the employers would abide by the law. Some workplaces have unions that stupidly agreed to this in collective bargaining and the WRC upheld it for Musgraves last year. The social welfare office has seen approx 70% uptick in enquires and requests for aid since it went to 5 days statutory. but they are now only paying from day 6. this really is problematic for the working poor, its like kicking them when they are down. I hope I have made it clearer.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/8c924-illness-benefit-and-statutory-sick-leave-in-2024/#:~:text=The%20Sick%20Leave%20Act%202022,increase%20from%203%20to%205. Statutory Sick Leave and employers

Under the Sick Leave Act 2022 employers can run a sick leave scheme which is better for employees than Statutory Sick Leave.

A few factors are considered in deciding if an employer’s sick leave scheme is better than Statutory Sick Leave. They include duration and rate of payment.

These employer schemes are not paid in addition to Statutory Sick Leave.

Social Welfare legislation states that Statutory Sick Leave employees and employees covered by better schemes are treated the same in terms of the effect on their Illness Benefit and Injury Benefit entitlements.

Illness Benefit and Injury Benefit are not payable where the person is receiving either:

• payment for Statutory Sick Leave

or

• payment on their employer’s scheme, which is exempt from Statutory Sick Leave because it offers better terms (up to 5 days)

Since 1 January 2024 Illness Benefit and Injury Benefit are paid from day 6 of the claim if you have not used any of your entitlement prior to this instance of illness.

Days 1-3 are covered by Illness Benefit or Injury Benefit ‘waiting days’ and the first 3 Statutory Sick Leave (or equivalent recognition of the more favourable employer scheme).

Days 4 and 5 are covered by the remainder of the 5 days statutory sick leave (or equivalent recognition of the more favourable employer scheme).

If you have used some of your entitlement prior to this instance of illness, you may receive payment from an earlier date. See examples below for reference.

Any claims made after the exhaustion of the Statutory Sick Leave/the employer equivalent will only serve the 3 waiting days.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122410074#Comment_122410074

Ok I see the point you are making. The issue you have though is with a company sick leave policy rather than the government statutory sick pay scheme. Employees affected by this need to fight the company they work for rather than the government!

The fact remains as it stands any company that only pays statutory sick pay only has to pay 5 days annually currently to an employee. Any company who has there own policy re sick pay is usually more generous often paying for several months sick leave. Is it really worth fighting for 3 days extra sick pay in these circumstances.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058360721/2022-sick-scheme-thwarting

To start with you are going to have to explain yourself way more than you have. 80% of what you have as a description on you petition is just a rant about taxation and the other 20% fails to explain the issue.

And in any case if you want to actually do something about it you are going to have to get out from behind the keyboard and run a political camagaine to have it changed on the other hand if it is just a feel good factor, continue on….

2breal

I am not ranting about taxation, the low income worker pays their fair share of them is the point we have the worst protection in Europe for sickness. Read this case https://www.philiplee.ie/wrc-decision-in-katerina-leszczynska-v-musgrave-operating-partners/

2breal

Furthermore, I just got out of an Adjudication with the WRC and my employer, the process was gruelling, no low paid worker who was not as bullhead as I would have the energy or time for the attempts to grind away my rights. I was employed for 9 months, was sick for 5 days (actually more like 10 over Christmas) the company policy was nosick pay for 1st year, then they had a waiting time of 5 days and then they paid 10 up to 20 depending on service. provide a sick cert after 2 days for everyone sick. I met all the criteria, we do not gave a union, we do not gave a workers committee negotiation, still the WRC made every attempt to give the employer the advantage, even asking them two weejs after the adjudication hearing to submit more evidence with my salary details. IBEC has come up with this piece of thwarting so they were there with 18 pages of nonrelatable evidence. The fact remains that I was entitled to the cover, I am waiting on the decision but not hopeful. It is not small employers at this, they value their employees its the large corporations with a lot of low income workers. In January the statutory entitlement will be 10 days, this needs to be sorted out.

Jim2007

You are arguing to enforce the statutory minimum and expect people to sign up to a proposal that would see them forcing their employers to give them over all a less beneficial package as a trade of for getting paid the first three days of sick leave……. no wonder you don't want to explain it in detail! I'm done.

2breal

That is just the kind of ridiculous thinking that has the workers in Ireland at the bottom of the europe heap when it comes to benefits. If the average Irish worker is out sick an average of just under 4 days how is a waiting period of 3 days then longer coverage period of 10 days beneficial? The average worker will be back at work, and get paid for a day. It's basic sums

2breal

By the way the working poor do not have the luxury of being without a few days pay. Count yourself blessed that you would prefer "insurance" for longer illness. The legislation was introduced so that no one is financially vulnerable when they fall ill. If the employer really wants to be generous add the extra time on top of the statutory requirement. Why take away part of the benefit and say "but look what I'm giving you".

Mrs OBumble

Now I understand it, I think you've got a very good point, and that we should be lobbying our TDs to make a law that there cannot be waiting periods on employer schemes.

Employer-paid sick leave is supposed to be an efficient way to support workers with short-term illnesses, and encourage them not to go to work while sick. Illness benefit paid by the government is the longer term way of supporting them, but the administration (doctors visits, claim forms, assessments) around it means it's inefficient, so the waiting periods to decrease claims are useful. Employers should be covering the gap during those waiting periods.

It's very nice of employers to offer longer periods of paid sick leave at higher rates. But if that is at the expense of not covering the first few days for everyone, then it's a failure of the recent policy change to require paid sick leave, if the nett effect is that many workers don't have paid sick leave until Illness Benefit kicks in.

OP do you have evidence that lots of employers are doing this? It's the first time I've heard of it - and if your employer is doing it, then my first thought is that you should leave and get a job somewhere that isn't pulling this sort of BS.

I know why the unions have agreed to it: They're interested in full-time permanent staff who good union members and these are on average older and more likely to need longer-term sick leave. (It's the same way that older teachers signed up to a pay scheme that drastically cut the pay of new teachers, but left the older ones untouched.)

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122411140#Comment_122411140

It is planned to be increased to 7 days in 2025 not 10, 10 comes in 2026 but this is possibly being delayed.