Vice President Kamala Harris vs Donald Trump 2024

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557973#Comment_122557973

That's a vote for Trump by the back door then.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557995#Comment_122557995

A huge win and returning the House and Senate to Democratic control would be best.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558160#Comment_122558160

It came from Fox. They're the largest media outlet in the US, i.e., "mainstream".

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558248#Comment_122558248

It is absolutely and unequivocally not.

A vote for Trump is a vote for Trump. I have already said I wouldn't be prepared to vote for him.

If me saying I wouldn't vote for Harris is a vote for Trump, you'd agree that me saying I wouldn't vote for Trump is a vote for Harris?

Or do people only do that one way?

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558232#Comment_122558232

You must never vote in Irish elections if you work off such criteria... By choosing to not vote, of you and up with dangerous people in power, you're in effect viewing that as an acceptable result.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558238#Comment_122558238

😀😀😀

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558139#Comment_122558139

Not casting a vote in the US presidential election does not lead to the same outcome as abstaining from voting in an Irish general election as well you know.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558254#Comment_122558254

Yeah, you're right. Oh it would be wonderful if some senators were kicked out...

Here's my wishlist.

Kari Lake - lose

Ted Cruz - gone (this would be epic)

Jim Justice - lose

Rick Scott - out the door.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558232#Comment_122558232

So why are you posting? Then what are you doing on an Irish discussion site, you have no vote, and you don't think either candidate represents you, though you can't clarify why Harris cannot represent you.

I "get" to call out the consequences and implications of you being unable to determine the political and moral difference between Harris and Trump. Or of someone in such a position with a vote.

You have no preference for Harris over a rapist and a felon. Which means you are ok with a rapist and a felon being President. That is an endorsement that such a person is a fit and proper person to be President, by not opposing it, it is tacit approval.

Regardless of how you 'feel' about it, that is the consequence of such a decision.
It is tacit approval in what is effectively a two horse first past the post race.
So in America you would be ok with Trump being President, you see no material difference between a rapist and a felon and Harris, such that would lead you to vote for Harris.

You said you wanted to have a discussion, you said Harris doesn't represent you - you were asked why not… you couldn't offer any sort of coherent reply.

This point was put to you:
How does Harris not represent you therefore? She is an actual democrat first before she is a Democrat, unlike Trump.

You talk of 'earning' your vote? Trump isn't trying to earn your vote, he tried to steal the last election that he lost fair and square. He is no democrat.
So in a ballot between an actual democrat and an election stealer, the actual democrat hasn't "earned your vote"?

Your claims here have no credibility.

The end result of many people abstaining like that will be a rapist and a felon as President, and a very real possibility of Trump rigging the 2028 as he tried to steal 2020.
So talk of 'earning a vote' will be an irrelevence.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558267#Comment_122558267

Yes. That's exactly how it works.

If you said you there was absolutely no way you could vote for Harris (for whatever reason) in a two horse race against Trump so you choose to abstain, you would be giving the thumbs up to a Harris presidency because you refused to use your power to keep her out, ie vote for Trump.

Likewise, if you said Trump is a terrible, terrible man who should never be president, and would never get your vote, but at the same time, you cant vote for Harris because of X reason, you are saying you are ok with a Trump presidency as you are refusing your power (your vote) to deny him that presidency.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558289#Comment_122558289

doesn’t matter a damn - same logic applies- a non-vote is one less vote for one person or party or issue.

What I’m aghast at, is the logic -or lack thereof- considering Democrats and Republicans are often dyed in the wool of that party, just because they can’t get themselves to vote for their own candidate doesn’t mean they’re in an asses roar of going anywhere near the opposing side.
What impact it has on the election overall will be down to just how many people abstain, from which parties and in which crucial states - that’s the only time abstainers may impact the outcome - likelihood is it will be a neutral impact overall -but to place some philosophical label on them that has no meaning in logic - I don’t vote for x therefore I am a y supporter- is completely devoid of logic and frankly laughable - it’s just an excuse by some posters to keep going with their “Trump supporter” labels on other posters they don’t agree with - plain as that.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558311#Comment_122558311

Well done. That's another one not coming back now. I guess we'll just be back to our echo chamber…

I assume certain people would lose their minds if another US political thread was opened...

Would this be the best thread to talk about the senate and house race?

johnny_ultimate

I'm coming at this from an unapologetically leftist position, but I do find myself uneasy at the idea that the Democrats (or Harris) are beyond criticism because the Republicans (or Trump) are worse.

The truth is, while Harris is unquestionably a stronger candidate than Biden, she hasn't had her ideas, policies or even delivery tested in a competitive primary campaign. Indeed, when she was in a competitive primary campaign in 2020, she crashed out pretty spectacularly after failing to gain any real momentum. There's a lot of goodwill based on 'vibes' because she's full of energy and a step up from Biden. And, granted, the circumstances here were unique (the original sin was not having Biden face a primary in the first place). But it remains to be seen whether she'd have made it through a genuine primary, and 'vibes' only get one so far. There's undoubtedly been positive policy announcements too (especially compared to Trump's nonsense), but so far a realtively slow trickle.

Some of the Dems' policies are entirely objectionable - and not in a 'we'll agree to disagree' sort of way, but just straight-up morally indefensible. Gaza is the obvious, glaring example here, but Harris has also done a complete 180 on, for example, fracking. You can argue compromise is necessary to gain votes, but a big part of actual visionary political leadership is fighting for and making the case for things you believe in, rather than just giving up entirely when you want a few extra votes in Pennsylvania. I'd also argue they've fallen far short on various environmental and healthcare issues - in many cases, actively suppressing pushes from within the party for a more forward-thinking platform.

It stands out to me how often Harris stresses 'the middle class' in her speeches and policies, understandably. But I see a lot less about the working class. Say what you will about Trump and his relentless bigotry / lies / hypocrisy, but his rhethoric is often laser focused on the disenfranchised and economically disadvantaged who've really suffered. The irony of course is that if elected he will only implement policies that benefit the ultra wealthy elites, and if Biden should get credit for one thing its for his pro-union approach. But the Democrats have often failed in really delivering for the working class and unnecessarily ceded ground to the Republicans in this regard - if not in practice certainly in rhetoric and votes (good Jacobin article about this here: https://jacobin.com/2024/08/trump-workers-trade-populism-rhetoric?mc_cid=25f35fefd8&mc_eid=c23a0d40f2 ).

This is all actually one of the reasons I appreciate Walz as a VP pick. He's actually down to earth and practical in a way I feel many of the familiar Washington-based mainstream Democrats aren't. He's a solid, easily relatable advocate for progressive policies that will actually make a difference for people - and while the Harris-Walz polciy platform may ultimately be quite standard centrist Democrat fare, picking him is IMO a step in the right direction.

Obviously, in a duopoly, the choice for most is a binary one even when there's a third-party on the ticket. A 'grin and bear it' approach is sometimes necessary, if hardly ideal. It's easy for me, as an Irish person without a vote in the US election, to say all this - I don't have to make the decision on whether to vote with my conscience or not. Obviously, I'd much prefer Harris to win over Trump. But not actually being more ambitious with policy is, I venture to say, not the way to build a stable, passionate and diverse coalition of voters. I have a lot of symapthy for those fighting for change in the Democrat party as is and sticking their head out to criticise their policies, because really they're not going to change as an institution unless there's pressure from within the existing system and structures. Trump is a particularly nasty, unique specimen in so many ways, but I have no doubt that given the current GOP, their 2028 candidate will be just as repulsive in their own way. If the Democrats' rely on the 'vote for us because the other side is worse' argument every single time, well they'll IMO continue to fall short of the much-needed change.

Though it goes without saying that a complete overhaul of the entire US political system would be needed to really solve the issues, as having this constant four-year fight between the two same sides and the endless political deadlock in DC is never going to get the US anywhere really positive.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122556847#Comment_122556847

One of the biggest falsehoods perpetrated. Identity politics is a republican thing not a democrat thing. Either through their vilification of a particular other or attempts to paint everything as part of a culture war.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558292#Comment_122558292

Kari Lake currently holds no elected office. She's running v. Ruben Gallego for Senate to take over Pharmalackey Kirsten Sinema's seat. Kari Lake is losing badly in polling in Az. Hopefully that translates to Gallego winning in a couple of months.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558232#Comment_122558232

Remember when Trump spoke to the Christian voter base 'Get out and vote this time and you won't ever have to vote again'? It's basically a badly thought out and paraphrased version of Paul Weyrich's mantra that the Christian voting block would always vote as their Pastors dictate and their turnout is consistently high. The intention then is to stop or hinder others from voting and the Council for National Policy, their subsidiaries and affiliates have all been extremely successful in denying votes to those they know will not vote Republican. In fact, they would take your response of spoiling a vote as a win.

The other thing to remember is that a two-party system like the US has, means those parties have quite the number of fault lines 'built-in'. The MAGA element is turning away traditional old-school Republicans. The Evangelicals don't sit easy with the Libertarians, who are at odds with the White Supremacy crowd, who hate the Israel lobby, etc. So expecting either party to act in your interests all the time is futile. Chances are if you were looking for the perfect candidate or party in the US you would always be disappointed and you wouldn't ever vote. And that is music to the Heritage Foundations ears.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122556915#Comment_122556915

Did it not turn out the donation was from somebody of the same name in a different area?

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558340#Comment_122558340

A super post- thanks!

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558326#Comment_122558326

Do you disagree with this so?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558320#Comment_122558320

Your vote is your power on who or who does not get the presidency.

If you abstain, you are choosing to not use the power of your vote.

Some people really don't like them equally so they abstain or bite third party - theres not many of them.

Some people vote third party for philosophical reasons and as a protest vote on another matter.

I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of abstainers, would fit into, "I vote x party all my life, but I cant vote for the person running to be president of that party. I can't vote for the other party because of history, so I'll abstain."

These people are the people that need to take a long hard look at themselves in the mirror and see which vision of America they're least against coming down the road and vote accordingly.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558340#Comment_122558340

But the Democrats have often failed in really delivering for the working class and unnecessarily ceded ground to the Republicans in this regard - if not in practice certainly in rhetoric and votes (good Jacobin article about this here:  https://jacobin.com/2024/08/trump-workers-trade-populism-rhetoric?mc_cid=25f35fefd8&mc_eid=c23a0d40f2  ).

I certainly wouldn't argue that they have lost the fight on the rhetoric, but it's hardly encouraging for anyone to have an unapologetically worker based approach. The Biden recovery from Covid was incredibly worker focused, and the bottom quartile raised wages more than any other. Employment shot up. The cost of services increased because workers were being paid better.

And the full outcome was people lost their head about inflation (despite it being lower than anywhere else in the world) and the Democrats are now being punished for this. If Harris loses it basically guarantees that no one in the near future will approach economic recovery from a worker's perspective and they'll go back to austerity. All cause Americans are obsessed with getting doordash and it got more expensive.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558340#Comment_122558340

Good post indeed.

The time to keep pushing the Dems to the left is in the senate/house races in 2026. They'll be expected to lose a few seats anyway, so a more vociferous workers campaign can be tolerated.

I think Harris and Walz are going after "The middle class" so much because they are the squeezed middle. They're very frustrated.

Americans also generally aggrandise their living and I would say a lot of working class people would be happy to describe themselves as middle class, while there would be more working class people seeing being middle class as an achievable ambition.

mun1

Playbook:

“You cant seem to see both sides of the arguement !

I dont take sides and i dont support trump !

You’re a liar , Trump didnt say that

You’re woke , Trump was misquoted !

You hate Trump, It was taken out of context !

People like you are awful, Trump didnt mean it !

Typical leftie, The other side are saying the same thing!

The left are scum, it doesn’t matter anyway !

The other side are undermining our democracy !

The election is rigged !

FFS She wore a tan suit ! Lock her up !”

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558379#Comment_122558379

then lecture them not me - but I wouldn’t call them “opposition supporters” either - they’re simply exercising their right not to vote - one abstention is very unlikely to swing an election so really even talking about this is pointless, except of course for those who wish to antagonise other posters - come back to me when there’s a mass movement in America calling on all Harris supporters to abstain from voting for Harris- then i might listen - but one person abstaining? It’s fcking madness to even spend time making an issue of that and it’s completely illogical to call that person a Trump supporter when abstaining from voting for either

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558450#Comment_122558450

Huh? Where are you getting me lecturing you from?

I'm saying there'll be more than one abstention. There always is.

In fact, you've already pointed out the secret non-trump voter. There could easily be many of them that will just abstain as well.

I'll say it again, if you abstain in a two-horse race, you give your tacit support to WHOEVER wins as you didn't use the power of your vote to keep them out.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558450#Comment_122558450

We have seen many Trump supporters do the whole 'both sides' false equivalences.
It is a social media tactic.

Why are you posting? You're just "antagonising" (your words not mine) other posters.

And taking a step back further, if you take your post to its logical conclusion it is madness posting here about a US election. You don't have a vote do you? Nor do I.

Why discuss any position, Trump supporter, abstainer, whatever. The position doesn't matter.

We're discussing the implications of the conduct, we can expect similar discussions to be happening on discussion boards with large cohorts of US voters too.

The turnout in the last election was high but still almost a third of voters didn't vote.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558487#Comment_122558487

…..and therefore we as the ruling committee on this thread hereby hold the right to call anyone who doesn’t support Harris 100% - a Trump supporter even though we know it derails the thread, stops proper discussion and debate and generally pizzes a lot of people off/ gotcha !

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558521#Comment_122558521

They acknowledged that Trump is a rapist and a felon.

They aren't bothered enough about that to vote to keep him out of office.
Implicitly, they are ok with having such an individual as their President.

The fact of that is far worse than a label like 'Trump supporter'.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558056#Comment_122558056

"some people say" but never a source. Where have we heard this type of play previously.

lee_baby_simms

Trumps interview with Dr Phil is quite something.

Trump claims that God must have saved him from the shooter because “He wants me to save the world.”

A man who has broken almost every commandment and has never confessed a sin must be saved in order to deport all the foreigners and give the super wealthy nice tax cuts (saving the world).

Maybe Trump is the second coming?

Trump is a malignant narcissist with boundless self delusion. He will sell anyone out in order to further his own aims. This has been evident to anyone paying attention for years. The fact that around 70 million people are about to vote for this charlatan for a third time reflects so badly on America as a whole. For me anyway.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558559#Comment_122558559

It does for me too- but you have to hand it to him - “God wants me to save the world” or “God has saved me for a purpose here on earth” - that’s fcking rocket fuel to his supporters - they go ballistically insane with delight - I wouldn’t expect anything less from Trump