Top 10% of earners contribute 2/3 of income tax take

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122428013#Comment_122428013

…isnt gonna be a sf government, so relax…

…im sure you enjoy state funded infrastructure such as transport, telecommunications, water, electricity etc etc!

…most of our tax revenue is currently coming from a handful of companies, so a few high earners leaving wouldnt make much difference!

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430158#Comment_122430158

The biggest tax take in Ireland is Income Tax, Corporation tax is a fair way behind and is not guaranteed, 5 companies changing where they pay their tax would be enough to put us into a large deficit, I would be inclined to want the skills those companies require within the Country.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430197#Comment_122430197

…and again, the country is currently being run from the tax take from a handful of companies!

….these companies are not moving anywhere, for various different reasons, no matter what government will be formed next, i.e. another ffg government!

…small deficits are in fact healthy, as this may mean we become less reliant on the private sector money supply, i.e. the credit supply, which is ultimately being used to inflate the price of assets such as property!

…many high income earners do not in fact help to increase the productive capacity of an economy, as many of them in fact are also helping to inflate the price of assets such as property, land, shares etc etc, this in fact is a highly extractive process, taking from an economy, in whats called 'rent seeking' behaviors…..

…and again, there will not be a sf lead government, theres gonna be another ffg government, so people need to relax!

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430095#Comment_122430095

I'm not demonising anyone.

I know this discussion has progressed, but I outlined earlier that taxing people earning less than 300k is probably a non-starter, but there is huge benefits to tax those on earnings above this.

There are a cohort of people earning millions per year, who are paying the same tax rate as those on a fraction of that income. The government can easily introduce a wealth tax and take billions extra from those well able to pay it.

The notion of a great exodus of high earners is fantasy stuff, and anyone thinking they're important because they earn low 6-figures is delusional.

It's not the 10% that's important. It's the top 0.1% that we should be looking at to pay more.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430229#Comment_122430229

…oh ive seen people earning healthy 6 figures get horsed out there door, and life carried on!

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430229#Comment_122430229

You have figures to show the billions we could take from these people?

It was fantasy in France too, wasn't it?

There is absolutely nothing stopping very high net worth individuals leaving Ireland when taxes become too punitive, Those people on high wages are paying far far more in Tax than the average earner, 52% of 100K is far less than 52% of 1Million.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430234#Comment_122430234

course you have 😂

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430229#Comment_122430229

who thought they were important because they earned a low six figure salary? Stop making stuff up so you can grandstand.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430265#Comment_122430265

…again, some high earners leaving wouldnt be really much of a problem, they would be easily replaced, probably with even higher earners, high earners really are replaceable…..

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430274#Comment_122430274

every one is replaceable, its just some are more replaceable than others. If executives were so easily replaced then executive search firms would all quickly go out of business.

downtheroad

A 40 year old PAYE employee, with no kids, spouse, rent tax credit, pension contributions or any other tax reliefs. Just the standard personal and employee tax credits..some examples of total tax deductions (Income Tax, USC, PRSI) for 2024:

€30,000: €3,962 , 13.2% tax paid

€40,000: €6,765 , 16.9% tax paid

€50,000: €11,167 , 22.3% tax paid

€75,000: €23,372 , 31.2% tax paid

€100,000: €36,378 , 36.4% tax paid

€200,000: €88,403 , 44.2% tax paid

The low earners will say the high earners should pay more. The high earners will say the low earners don't pay enough.

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430274#Comment_122430274

Because people would be queuing up to pay the punitive tax rates that the previous high earners did a runner from.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430269#Comment_122430269

…have indeed, the corporate sector is ruthless, tis horrible to see, very damaging to peoples well being, that person become extremely ill due to stresses induced from work, forced to take time off, then got horsed upon returning, nasty nasty stuff….

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430286#Comment_122430286

…yea actually they would, theres plenty available around the world, tis all good folks, no shortage…..

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430306#Comment_122430306

….and all gonna continue with indefinite ffg government's, tis all good….

Viscount Aggro

Somebody on 50k can be wealthier than somebody on 100k.

It depends on your living expenses, overheads.

greyday

We already have had to give tax breaks for people to come into the Country with skills we are lacking, lets just run them out of the Country and help the other Countries that want what they are selling.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430328#Comment_122430328

…it does depend on nuisances, somebody on a 100k could be up to their tonsils in mortgage debt, and be barely able to afford a pair of jocks…..

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430265#Comment_122430265

Oh they can leave, but their assets, their property, land, companies etc etc can't be moved so easily.

So what if a millionaire is paying more tax that someone on 1/10th that income, they can well afford it. The top 1% own 30% of the wealth in this country and this is increasing quickly because they are being taxed ineffectively.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430333#Comment_122430333

…and again, there is no shortage of high income earners, globally, period….

…and again, theres not gonna be a sf government, possible never, so relax!

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430352#Comment_122430352

You come across as a communist TBH.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430380#Comment_122430380

…please explain to us what a communist is, and please explain to us in detail what its relation to Marxism is, while you re at it?

…as i suspect you know as much as i do about both, which is a grand total of fcuk all….

thanks

greyday

But we had to bring in SARP to attract them……if high earners leaving en masse was going to have a negligible effect we would not be giving tax breaks to attract them in the first place, France decided to tax high net worth individual and saw 42000 of them leave resulting in them losing twice as much tax and they had hoped to earn from their tax, there is a lesson to learn there, people between 40k to 100k are taxed too heavily in my view and those above are on a knife edge, an increase to those people could be the tipping point where it becomes advantageous to move to another Country where they get far more for the tax they pay.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430398#Comment_122430398

…we placed an income cap in banking post crash!

…oh and do you believe america is or was ever a communist state?

Widdensushi

Suppose that once a week, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7.
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
And the tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.　
So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every week and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until, one day, the owner caused them a little problem. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your weekly beer by £20." Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free but what about the other six men? The paying customers? How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share? They realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33 but if they subtracted that from everybody's share then not only would the first four men still be drinking for free but the fifth and sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.　

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fairer to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage. They decided to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.

And so, the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (a100% saving).
The sixth man now paid £2 instead of £3 (a 33% saving).
The seventh man now paid £5 instead of £7 (a 28% saving).
The eighth man now paid £9 instead of £12 (a 25% saving).
The ninth man now paid £14 instead of £18 (a 22% saving).
And the tenth man now paid £49 instead of £59 (a 16% saving).　
Each of the last six was better off than before with the first four continuing to drink for free.　

But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got £1 out of the £20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got £10!"　
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a £1 too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"　

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back, when I only got £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"　

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.　

The next week the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important - they didn't have enough money between all of them to pay for even half of the bill!　

And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy and they just might not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.　

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430380#Comment_122430380

You have no idea what a communist is if that's your take.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430398#Comment_122430398

Cant believe I have to keep saying this, people on 40k to 100k are not wealthy. They're not even in the same league as wealthy. If you think you're a high earner on 200k then you're delusional. You're still getting a mortgage and a car loan, same as the rest of us.

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430403#Comment_122430403

I give up, You are right, Banks are the big beneficiaries from SARP and America is a communist state in disguise, what claptrap are you on about!

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430430#Comment_122430430

…you made a claim about high taxation and communism, if so, can you please explain to us how communist america had extremely high rates of tax post world war two, and for a couple of decades to boot!

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430438#Comment_122430438

My point was the saint Padre wanted everyone earning the same by taxing the daylights out of high earners to bring them down to the lower earners, the state being the beneficiary of all work through taxation to the point that it owns everything.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430501#Comment_122430501

..i dont agree with that anyway, a capitalist economy does need financial incentives for it to be truly effective, this is one of the main reasons why alternatives such as more socialist/communist/call it what you will ,economies, never truly worked, theres was no real incentives for innovation, and this is really where capitalism excels, innovation…..

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430519#Comment_122430519

And so………………….Padre seems to be extreme socialist or communist as from what I am reading he wants to bring equality to the extreme which can only result in everyone sitting on their arses as there is no incentive to work or opportunity to better oneself, he wants to crucify those that have climbed the ladder through taxation when we have already seen from another poster that the person earning 200K per year is paying the state 88K which is many many multiples of the person earning 40k but thats not enough as he himself stated the person on 200K can afford more, he is removing the incentive for people to progress and earn more by taking more and more from them.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430229#Comment_122430229

Paying the same rate of tax; but not paying the same amount of tax.

Nope, they are likley paying much more tax than the next hundred people combined that you will walk past this weekend.

And they can get up and leave in an instant.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430540#Comment_122430540

…there needs to be a balancing act, if some are heavily 'rewarded' for their efforts, that shouldnt mean others get fcuked! this is effectively where we currently are….

…higher earners tend to spend less of their income directly into the economy, compared to lower income earners, but generally tend to invest their income in assets markets such as property, this in turn screws lower income earners by helping to push up the price of such assets, forcing lower earners into more and more debt, in an attempt to meeting one of their most critical of needs, security of accommodation, i.e. housing….

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430541#Comment_122430541

…is this a flat rate of tax debate, if so, its been tried, and badly failed…..

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430572#Comment_122430572

Nope.

We dont have a flat rate. We already have a higher rate, is the point. And raise it too high and you lose the people paying all the tax. We then need to raise the tax burden on the lower paid.

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430572#Comment_122430572

Which groups are getting fucked, the lowest paid are not paying any tax and get subsidised with housing, medical cards etc depending on circumstances, more could be done but tax high earning PAYE workers who already give over 52% on earning over 75K can be described as them getting fucked as well.

The higher paid for higher sjkill sets are the incentive for the lower paid to improve their skill sets to move up the ladder, even Padre did not mention a flat rate system, he just wants to tax the fcuk out of people earnings even though for some reason he has rowed back a little on that in his recent post, to him now 200K isnt a high earner but they still need to pay more tax.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430612#Comment_122430612

…and again, the bulk of our current tax take is from a handful of companies, period!

..and again, there currently is not a mass exodus of high earners, period….

…and again, there currently is not a global shortage of high earners, period….

…and again, there is not gonna be a sf government…

ffs!

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430618#Comment_122430618

…those that do not qualify for such benefits, are getting fcuked….

…younger generations struggling to meet their housing needs, i.e. stuck in the family home, rental sector etc, are currently getting fcuked….

…and again, most citizens pay tax, including the unemployed!

..the highest rate of income tax in communist america was 90%, post ww2!

…holy fcuk, capitalism was not always like it is now, and what happened in the past when wealth inequality got to extremely high levels………..WAR!

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430621#Comment_122430621

Currently is a great word, proactive is another one, so when we put them together we get that if we are proactive in not taxing the fcuk out of higher earners then we can expect to retain and possibly increase the tax take we have currently 😂

Eudaimonia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122415967#Comment_122415967

In truth the reality is the mass of lazy plodders who live their lives for enjoyment will always overpower the hard working ones who deserve to not be used as w8nk rags for the lazy party goers. It’s simple bullying.

The people who work and sacrifice their youth, rights of passage and social lives for achievement and success on a professional level will always be taken advantage of. The only solution to obtain any justice is for those who work themselves to the bone to become militant like the ones who don’t work themselves to the bone.

It’s a simple advertising campaign where the ones who work, start to out weight the ones who don’t work and put all their weight into complaining and pressurising the system and power brokers into believing they are deprived.

They aren’t deprived they are less statistically sacrificial and hard working over time. The injustice of modern western democracies is based on sob stories of abuse and lack of results and deprivation. It’s all false. Judge things on results. Be impartial in doing so and tax accordingly. It’s leading to communism and total state control and its a propaganda exercise which will kill justice in our time.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430541#Comment_122430541

So what? Likely paying the same tax as a hundred people combined I may pass, but earning 50 times what those same people may be earning.

But after tax and living expenses those hundred people might have 5 or 10% left for investing and putting their money towards passive income.

That poor wealthy person paying so much tax may have 40% of their income left over to invest and hoover up assets that generate passive income.

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430274#Comment_122430274

If high earners were so easily replaced, they wouldn’t be high earners.

The abundance of high earners means the demand for the skills they posses outstrips the supply…that’s why they’re paid as such…

I know there’s a ideology through this thread that these big bad MNCs are picking average, unremarkable people and paying them huge wages they couldn’t get anywhere else for some random reason…but, hint, that’s not the case.

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430649#Comment_122430649

Young people you say are getting fcuked with high house prices, market forces made worse by a Government that stalled building houses for a long time, where we may differ is I might say if the Government stopped yaking close to half of young peoples pay who earn more than 42K then they might very well be less fcuked, along with dropping the exorbitant taxes on new houses among other things, Padre might want us to tax pewople to kingdom come and then give everyone free houses before the money runs out.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430618#Comment_122430618

Not even €75k mate, it's €70,044. 8% rate of USC kicks in after that.

digiman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430766#Comment_122430766

And the reality is that the guys on €300k here working for the MNCs would make at least twice that in the US but also take home about three to four what they take home here. In saying that I’ve been offered a move to the US several times and have very little interest as there are huge negatives for families and this makes staying at home in Ireland a much more attractive prospect for someone who has their family and friends here. I’ve seen quite a few people hired into Dublin from India and South America who leave here and move to the US as soon as they can as it’s much more attractive for them.

greyday

Was speaking to a guy last week who earns roughly 130K but the job involved a lot of travelling, he said himself and the wife were contemplating moving to Europe as at the moment he would be able to buy in the Countries he was interested in moving to and have a bit left from the sale of his house in Ireland, he also obviously mentioned the higher rate of tax and what he was getting for it, in his circumstances moving is probably the right thing to do as he is from the UK originally, he is 51 and is very aware that anything he saves by leaving Ireland can go into his pension to provide for the future, also mentioned he would not fancy being elderly in Ireland with the state of the health service.

dulpit

Some people in this thread seem to be taking the view that the salary of someone is the sole indicator of whether they have worked hard or not.

People work super hard in low paying jobs. People work not hard at all in low paying jobs. The same applies for higher paid jobs. Some jobs just attract a higher wage.

And for all the people talking about how you could leave because tax is too high, why haven't they already? You could go to countries that have lower taxes. Or higher pay. Or even no tax at all. But they haven't yet.

There is always going to be a small percentage of people who will be transient workers. They will work in country a for a few years, then onto country b. And so on.

But I fully believe that, once you have achieved a degree of comfort with your salary, then the actual income you have is no longer the most important element for deciding where to live and work. It's jib satisfaction. Quality of life. Proximity to family and friends. Stuff like that. A small increase or decrease in tax is unlikely to change that.

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122431084#Comment_122431084

I actually agree to an extent.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430766#Comment_122430766

It is the case. Some of us are in these roles. We know how handy it is. What's this fantasy you're spreading about these super humans we just can't survive without. It's total nonsense.

Musicrules

See this is the cold hard truth. People won't leave, they don't want to. And if they do, let them. They won't be missed.