2 child cap UK welfare - Ireland no cap welfare

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421330#Comment_122421330

Education for young people is an investment in their future. To be cynical about it you could just look at it in terms of earning and taxpaying potential.

Healthcare is a losing argument. UK stats show Old people cost the health system way more than young people. People over 65 cost 42% of the healthcare resources and are 19% of the population.

Under 35s cost 20% and are 40% of the population.

Young people make money, old people cost money. Young children cost far, far less than the old people

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421050#Comment_122421050

That's the main reason and it's clear this will go on for another decade. We are also handling the Asylum seekers situation very badly and our ability to deal with crime and provide a health service is getting worse.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421167#Comment_122421167

Less expensive in terms on childcare costs for parents. Raising kids shouldn't be as expensive as it is and trying to fix this should be done regardless of whether or not the government want to incentivise more kids.

Ezeoul

Well, restricting child benefit to the first two children only, would be one way to push up our abortion rates. Some people (not me) would have a problem with that. 🤔

So if we followed the UK on this, where does it stop?

Child #1 and #2 get free GP, subsidised childcare, free education, etc - but parents hav to pay these costs for child #3+?

To my mind, it would be more sensible to reduce the amount of child benefit paid per child, (and stop double payments for multiples) than to restrict it to the first two children.

Child benefit also contributes to making it possible for a child to have a parent stay at home with them in the early years, rather than forcing the parent back to work, and the child into a creche at a year old.

JMHO.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421450#Comment_122421450

Sure sure, cutting back on the number of babies will reduce housing demand.

I've not seen any toddlers bidding on new builds, but I've been out of that game for a few years.

We've some of the most under-utilised housing in Europe and most families can easily fit another child or two into their house without needing to upsize, but I presume you're renting yourself and that's where the bias is coming from .

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421357#Comment_122421357

So you cannot think of a way to argue your point of view and resort to this instead

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421310#Comment_122421310

If a child is being negleted we have Tusla for that. I'm not disputing there are people out there taking the piss but taking the €140 off them wont make them take the money out of the booze/fags expenses every month it's the child that misses out on that money. It's effectively victim blaming.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421220#Comment_122421220

And I'm sure my post didn't mean kids would be questioning why they were getting free meals at school if they were hungry...I would have thought that would be relatively obvious?????

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421545#Comment_122421545

So if we followed the UK on this, where does it stop?

You’re giving people ideas with that sort of talk, won’t be long before they start side-eyeing the maternity grant and pulling out their calculators 😂

Maternity Cash Grant

If you hold a medical card you can get a Maternity Cash Grant of €10.16 from the HSE after the birth of your child.

Apply for a Maternity Cash Grant through your Local Health Office.

https://www2.hse.ie/babies-children/parenting-advice/services-supports/child-benefit-and-other-supports/

Wouldn’t want new parents going wild altogether with that tenner 😂

Victor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122419152#Comment_122419152

And if the children are ill?

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421450#Comment_122421450

Yes but housing won’t get fixed until ABP gets fixed.

The asylum seeker situation wouldn’t be gaining any traction if we had an abundance of affordable housing (not social- affordable).

Every single issue in this country stems from a lack of housing.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421547#Comment_122421547

They will add to the demand when they become adults

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421504#Comment_122421504

If having and raising children is irrelevant to the country and just a nice luxury, then what difference does it make? Seems like as expensive decadence if the objective isn't to make having children easier to raise birth rates.

I take it you're opposed to the 2 child limit on child benefit which some are suggesting we should impose?

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421673#Comment_122421673

So will your immigrants from the BRICS you plan to bring in to run the country. That doesn't change whether they're Irish or immigrants

Idiocracy opening scene sums up what anyone looking for a cap on child benefit is likely thinking.

https://youtu.be/sP2tUW0HDHA?si=YTe-wuntTvPJTJnb

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421417#Comment_122421417

It’s pandering, and those children will never build up any resilience.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421861#Comment_122421861

That's already happened

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421412#Comment_122421412

So anyone that doesn't agree with you is "motivated by nothing more than immature petty spite"

You don't really understand the idea of a discussion forum do you?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421347#Comment_122421347

You did compare children allowance to healthcare. Nobody is arguing or even suggesting that children healthcare should be removed, you brought that into the discussion. nobody else. It's an odd point to bring into the discussion, as a parent you should know every parent worst fear is their child getting sick.

Again everyone get paid children allowance who has a child, jumping on this as some sort of social welfare argument is incorrect and just trying to drag the conversaiton in one direction

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421885#Comment_122421885

Not at all, it’s you who made the original point, which upon reading it I judged it to be motivated by nothing more than immature petty spite. I forgot to add your point demonstrated that you hadn’t really thought your ideas through, especially the idea of imagining that people’s primary motivation for having children are merely financial gain, when in reality child benefit amounts to fcukall in terms of raising children from birth to adulthood, never mind in terms of what it costs the State to provide for children from birth to adulthood.

It IS petty and spiteful to suggest anyone living in misery should have more misery inflicted upon them, as if “that’ll learn ‘em” 😒

Perhaps if you could give an example of people living in misery whose circumstances were improved by inflicting even more misery upon them, and how that benefited society, I might agree there is a rational basis for your argument and it’s totes reasonable. Like I’ll even suggest we can do like the Conservative Party in the UK attempted to do when they introduced the two-child cap and forget about that whole concept of Human Rights being a thing and all (they’re terribly inconvenient really when you just need to impose misery on people who are already miserable in order to teach their children a lesson! 😒) in order to give you some room to develop your ideas and flesh out how you see that working out to benefit society.

It’s not as though Irish society hasn’t been there before and figured yeah, let’s not do that again, you appear to have figured out a way to do it that would benefit society, as opposed to being a complete failure which would be disastrous for society.

nachouser

140 a month per child is f*ck all. I've no kids and I'll spend more than that this weekend bringing my folks out for a birthday lunch. I slag off the people I work with that my taxes are buying runners for their kids. But it's nothing compared to the expense of raising kids.

tom1ie

This threads getting very personal.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122422018#Comment_122422018

So anyone with a different opinion to you is just motivated by spite. Thanks for clearing it up,m

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122422183#Comment_122422183

Again, not at all, there’s a whole plethora of people have different opinions to mine, and generally it’s plain as day they’re motivated by sheer stupidity and ignorance. Your opinion was definitely motivated by spite though because it amounted to nothing more than just suggesting cutting child benefit and maybe they should have thought about financial planning before having children (and before it was known that child benefit would be cut too I guess). I’m more curious as to how you imagine that would work out in a way that would benefit Irish society? It is, as you so astutely pointed out earlier, a discussion forum after all.

I figured I’d leave your suggestion of school meals alone as it’d look like I was picking on you specifically if I pointed out - school dinners for whom, exactly? Given rates of absenteeism are significantly higher among schools in deprived areas as opposed to more affluent areas, who exactly would you be serving hot meals to? 🤔

https://archive.ph/hbxLo

Don’t get me wrong, breakfast clubs and the likes are a great idea, but they should be provided as an additional support, not in place of existing supports.

beggars_bush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421417#Comment_122421417

Yes, for a tiny minority with special needs and specific issues

beggars_bush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122420915#Comment_122420915

Go on. We've worked it out.

beggars_bush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421651#Comment_122421651

Generally children are ill for 4-5 days with viral issues.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122422098#Comment_122422098

So you assume all children / teens who develop anxiety and school refusal, must have a parent who suffers from anxiety? Shows how little you know.

One of the points raised on the thread was that child benefit should be conditional on children having good school attendance.

I linked to an article on school refusal, listing the many reasons why a child may develop anxiety in school, which I doubt you read - or maybe you did, and dismissed it out of hand, assuming you have some superior knowledge to the experts (and parents) on the subject.

Thankfully these days we have actual trained mental health and education professionals who recognise children / teens with anxiety and school refusal do not simply need a lesson in "resilience" to help them overcome their anxieties.

And parents shouldn't have loss of their child benefits held over their head as a threat, if they have a child who suffers from anxiety, or indeed any other illness which impacts on a child's school attendance.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421785#Comment_122421785

Most people want kids and a fair society should make what the majority want obtainable as much as they can. People having kids is not a bad thing, it's just not something we need to promote at the moment.

I think there should be a % reduction for child 3 and a further reduction for child 4 but if you've been paying taxes on your wages for a reasonable period of time you get exempt from this and don't face a reduction for child 3 and 4.

vswr

It's been mentioned numerous times that it's one of the elements in the UK finances which wouldn't get amended immediately.

It's a substantial amount for the UK exchequer. Labour already said any huge decisions like that would need to take time, as they only get access to the balance books when they get into office (3 weeks ago).

They haven't taken it off the table, they just need to find out what they could replace it with (state pensions for already wealthy pensioners is being looked at, along with taxing private schools and a few other avenues).

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122422288#Comment_122422288

Where did I say that my comment referred to all children with anxiety? Ah yes, nowhere, but it suits the dramatic narrative I suppose. If they have any issues it’s your job to help them overcome them and keep them in school. I am sick and tired of everything being explained by anxiety and neurodiversity (applies to adults and children). That won’t breed success.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122422304#Comment_122422304

What have you got against third children Greyfox? 😁

What has Lenihan got against third children?

Finally thanks to this contributor yesterday for this joke following news there will be a €10 cut in child benefit for the first and second child and a €20 cut for third and subsequent children.

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2010/dec/08/ireland

Ahh no, not to point the finger at you specifically or anything, but the “third child” cap and beyond has always struck me as odd, especially in light of the fact that all income forms a household income, and it wouldn’t matter if there was one child or 20 children - the whole household income would still have to be apportioned for each child according to their needs, as opposed to the idea that parents would only provide for the first two children and they could pretend any additional children either don’t exist, or can justifiably be neglected because Government has chosen to do so in its social and fiscal policies.

They don’t forget about the extra children when it comes to taxation though, something which the child benefit comes in handy for by way of slipping the grandparents a few quid for minding their children:

https://archive.ph/lRErS

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122422384#Comment_122422384

I have plenty of experience with people with anxiety, and can tell you that they often don’t even realise how they foster their children’s own dysfunctions. 

You were speaking in generalisations.

Maybe when (if) you ever have children of your own to raise, you can worry about "breeding success" in them.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122422410#Comment_122422410

Greyfox is worried these children will bidding against him and pushing up property prices

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122422455#Comment_122422455

”Often”. The key word in the quote is “often”.

I don’t think I should be left to raise a child on my own, but I will happily continue to help raising the one that is entrusted with my care on some part time basis. That one will be a success.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122422570#Comment_122422570

Sure.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122422304#Comment_122422304

So you reduce children's allowance if the parent isn't working? So the people who have less money get less?

What's the logic there please? Or are you just punishing people who can't/don't work?

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122422410#Comment_122422410

It's more just feeling that their should be a point where the government stops paying towards a decision that a person made.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122423310#Comment_122423310

I hear you, but the other side of that coin is the fact that the State receives a considerable return on it’s investment, far greater than anything that would be saved by depriving people of a few quid because they made a decision that benefits society as a whole by deciding to have more children. Consider for example if people decided not to have children - that’s a personal decision which would have disastrous consequences for Irish society. It’s in the States, and Governments own interests to provide for children where their parents can’t.

witchgirl26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122421545#Comment_122421545

Sorry was kind of with you until you got to the stopping double payment for multiples. Do you not understand the unique difficulties that come with having multiples? Little scenario below.

Family A has 3 children aged 5, 4 & 2. Parents bought all the main equipment while first child was born (pram, cot, co-sleeper, car seat etc). They had a 1 time cost which was expensive but they were then able to reuse these things for the subsequent children so every time a child was born, the initial outlay was less. Cost of nappies went down with each subsequent year as children toilet trained & as one child was starting full time childcare, another was possibly then getting ECCE hours or starting school, thus reducing the overall childcare bill.

Family B has 3 children who are aged 3 and are triplets. Parents had to buy 3 of everything at the start which is a massive outlay. There is no handing down because all need the same things at the same time. Nappy cost is consistently high for all years prior to toilet training. Additionally childcare is full cost until they hit 2 years 8 months at least & are entitled to the ECCE hours.

There is a distinct reason that it doubles for multiples and that is because it is recognised that there is an additional burden on the family that is unique to those circumstances. And before you moan about IVF causing multiples - there's 5-6 multiples in my estate (ranging from twins to quads) and only 1 of them was through IVF.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122423557#Comment_122423557

Sorry, I disagree.

I could conceed that an increased rate payment for multiples may be appropriate in the first year after birth, but after that, I believe the rate should revert to the same as is paid for any other children.

There are "Irish twins" in my family (Baby #1 born followed by Baby #2 11 months later) and they use a lot of nappies too, as does any family with more than one child under the age of 2, without receiving increased rate child benefit per child. Same applies to childcare costs.

However increased rate child benefit for multiples is paid from birth right up to the age of 16, or 18 if in full time education.

I also don't see the need to bring up the manner of conception, or why you felt the need to mention IVF here.

*Edit to correct myself - CB for twins is paid at 1.5 times rate, and triplets @ 2 x rate.

Vote4Squirrels

100% regarding multiples - should be 2 birth cap, not 2 child cap for the reasons excellently demonstrated above.

dulpit

Genuine question here, for all the people talking about restricting children's allowance or capping it or whatever - how many of ye have children? How many understand the absolute lunacy of thinking that a €140 per month payment comes close to "paying for a child".

Boggles

Jesus the permanently outraged are a strange bunch.

We NEeD MoRE ChIlDreN!

CaP ChILdREn!!

I imagine the procreation rate with a lot of these nutters is close to zero, which is a good thing.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122422910#Comment_122422910

Those who have worked have paid into the system. Obviously if you haven't worked due to disability or been a carer then you are exempt.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122423645#Comment_122423645

Child benefit is not supposed to pay the full costs of raising a child. It is a payment to assist the parents with the costs of raising a child.

I am a parent of a now adult, and I have no issue with the payment of child benefit for all children, I think it's an essential scheme. But when I was receiving child benefit, there was no subsidised childcare, no ECCE scheme, no free GP, all on top of the monthly Child Benefit.

And I think we all know childcare and GPs in particular, were never cheap.

So, while it may be an unpopular opinion, I feel parents in this country are now receiving a very generous amount of assistance towards the cost of raising children, even if it may not feel like it to them.

osarusan

The UK vote wasn't even about children's benefits - it is paid for every child in the UK.

It was about claiming Universal Credit.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122423710#Comment_122423710

I’m tempted to ask about the logistics of administering such a convoluted scheme, given I’m thinking of all sorts of permutations of family makeups (young parents, one parent families, one income families where one spouse is employed and the other has never been employed or is in full-time education, etc)…

But I don’t think you’ve gotten that far yet so it doesn’t seem fair to ask 😂

Quitelife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122423645#Comment_122423645

Think the problem is some people ( not Working ) are using it to increase their social welfare payments plus increased childrens allowance to fund their lives and not use it for the children…..having 8 children ( 786 Euro SW weekly 3,406 monthly plus 1120 Euro Cildrens allowance plus free house (45 Euro per week ) and then the 8 children repeat this process when they get older meaning we have 64 children in this box.

Meanwhile the 2 parent working houshold measures what they can afford after paying rent/mortage/childcare/working costs and have 2 children well looked after and those 2 children go onto have a smilar number of 2 making 4 children.

in 25 years time we will have one large extended family with 64 looking for social welfare and on the other hand we have the tax payer family with 4 children paying taxs.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361122/2-child-cap-uk-welfare-ireland-no-cap-welfare

The UK is a third country and not part of our economy or market, what does your research into what the other member states of the EU do, you know the ones that we have actual economic and social welfare ties do? One assums your research is extensive given your conculsion…