2 child cap UK welfare - Ireland no cap welfare

babyducklings1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361122/2-child-cap-uk-welfare-ireland-no-cap-welfare

And who is having ten or twelve children I’d love to know?! Nobody I’d say. . We are now the second most expensive country in Europe to to live in. That money helps families and probably all goes back into the economy anyway,

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122435172#Comment_122435172

Yes.. If it's such a great deal, why haven't you done it already?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430590#Comment_122430590

Men aren't checking out. A lot of them will say so but I'd wager it's because they can't admit that they aren't attractive either as partners or employees.

herbalplants

Since Ireland is such a "rich" country, why doesn't the government subsides creches, all creches, everyone working should have access to free creche or pay 200 euro a month for example. Also offer free breakfast and lunch in school to all public school kids.

This will help citizens to have more children who will eventually contribute to the society.

Invest in all children not just in social welfare families, nothing against to majority of them. But why discriminate against children from working families. Why only put money in disadvantaged areas? Why not all children be treated equally.

Since so many believe we are such a wealthy country.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122435915#Comment_122435915

I think you need to understand how taxes work

People are already heavily taxed, no government is going to tax more. All of those suggestions would require more taxes

downtheroad

Welfare in general should have a cap. Nobody on welfare should be receiving more than the net minimum wage, based on a 40 hour week. And in fact it should be far less than that amount, to discourage people from leaving the workforce for a life of scrounging.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122438217#Comment_122438217

Does that include the pension? That's a form of welfare?

What about sick pay? Or carers? Or maternity leave? Or job seekers if you've just lost a job? What happens if you have a disability?

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122438485#Comment_122438485

The state contributory pension is €277.30 per week (according to a quick Google).

That's €14,419.60 a year, which is well below €26,416 (minimum wage €12.70 x 40 x 52).

Potential-Monke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122438485#Comment_122438485

This is the problem we have. Instead of just concentrating on the scum who take advantage, people automatically lump in the people who are deserving of it to make it sound like we hate everyone on welfare.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122439009#Comment_122439009

It's relevant. The benefit system is huge. Pensioners might not like to think of themselves as benefit recipients, but they are.

Point is that any huge system works on broad strokes and spot checks. That Means there's scope to exploit it and even get away with it. But that's the nature of making a huge system work.

I'd have no issue with cracking down in fraud within the system. It would probably cost more than it saves so if its about the principle then it makes sense.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122439185#Comment_122439185

Anyone can report suspected welfare fraud though?

https://www.gov.ie/en/service/report-suspected-social-welfare-fraud/

The only principle it operates on is that it’s means tested for the most part, it’s certainly not morals tested, so whether anyone’s a scumbag or not is irrelevant - they’re either entitled to welfare based upon meeting set criteria, or they’re not. That’s why a system which is limited to providing for two children, is going to mean a family with more than two children is likely to experience even greater poverty, having to distribute the same amount between more than two children. A reduction in the payment won’t discourage anyone from having children, it’ll just mean the family is left in even greater poverty.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122419074#Comment_122419074

I’d give child benefit for 2 children, any more children after that then they should receive money via large tax breaks. Encourage workers to have kids.

hello2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122435915#Comment_122435915

Best comment so far ! instead of importing from other countries, invest in local community to produce more doctors , nurses , engineers , technicians etc

witchgirl26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122440819#Comment_122440819

Ok but realistically the more kids that someone has, the higher the cost of childcare & the more it becomes economically unviable for 1 of the parents in that family to continue working. Tax breaks won't help with that. I mean if it's €1,300 a month for childcare for 1, there'd have to be some massive tax break for parents to be able to afford €3,900 a month in childcare.

Quitelife

Benefits for Children should be capped at 2 for those who wont/dont work…working families should be given the benefit of the present unlimited Child Benefits system we have including tax breaks..

We need more workers not parasites

quokula

Personally I like living in a country where newborn children aren't punished and pushed into poverty by the government for the crime of having too many siblings.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122440960#Comment_122440960

What about people who can't work due to disability or caring for a disabled person?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122440960#Comment_122440960

Working families DO have the benefit of the present unlimited Child Benefits system, and because they’re working, they get child tax credits too, similar to the universal credit system in the UK that the Government is planning on gutting in order to ensure more workers aren’t just working, but they’re working longer hours:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-41487126.amp

The whole idea of working longer hours doesn’t lend itself to opportunities to produce more workers who have yet to begin working.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122440960#Comment_122440960

What about stay at home parents?

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441074#Comment_122441074

I presume they'd be treated as unemployed in the normal way. Economically inactive is the term for people who choose to do unpaid work like stay at home parent.

I presume you mean someone who isn't looking for paid work.

Interested to see what the poster meant though.

Quitelife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441110#Comment_122441110

To be fair people that are genuinely disabled or schooling from home could be facilitated but its large extended families that go onto have large extended families and none of them ever work is the problem , they used say its 1% of the population but moire likely 3 to 4% of population these days and in some counties like Longford, Limerick, Galway it could be 10%

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122443836#Comment_122443836

It’s less than 1% of the population, according to Census 2022:

The number of Irish Travellers living in the State and counted in Census 2022 was 32,949, an increase of 6% from 30,987 in the 2016 census. Irish Travellers make up less than 1% of the population so, for comparison purposes, it can be helpful to use rates per 1,000 of the population. This shows that in Census 2022, six out of 1,000 people in the State were Irish Travellers. The proportion of Irish Travellers in the population varied from county to county.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cpp5/census2022profile5-diversitymigrationethnicityirishtravellersreligion/irishtravellers/

Basing welfare on ethnicity is just a non-starter 😒

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122443876#Comment_122443876

How is this racist post allowed? You are replying to someone suggesting the issue is with large families who don't work and your view is this must be travellers?

Why is racism against travellers allowed on boards still?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122443953#Comment_122443953

Oh calm down, there was nothing racist in my post. My reply was referring to this, from the previous post:

they used say its 1% of the population but moire likely 3 to 4% of population these days and in some counties like Longford, Limerick, Galway it could be 10%

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122443836#Comment_122443836

Are there stats on the number of people on the live register long-term? I did a very quick search and didn't see anything. I didn't persist with it.

The CSO has the live register at 171,500 for June. 112,800 were on the live register for less than a year. So you're talking about 60,000 people who have been on it for a year or more.

Which stats are you using to reach the percentages you mentioned in the post above?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122444051#Comment_122444051

With large extended families who go on to have large extended families…

I mean, as dog whistles go, it was phenomenal, I’ll give the poster credit for that much at least 😂

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122444069#Comment_122444069

It's interesting to think of Ian Paisley saying Catholics 'breed like rabbits and multiply like vermin'. We all know what's wrong with it when he said it, but here we have posters openly saying the wrong kind of people are having children and they don't seem to see the parallel.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122444144#Comment_122444144

Well people having kids they cannot afford is bad for society.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122444651#Comment_122444651

I know I know. I think we need children and it's worth subsidising them, you think it's fine and we can import people to run the country in the future. We've been through all this already.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122444651#Comment_122444651

It doesn’t make any difference good or bad to society. Society isn’t responsible for everyone else’s children, their parents and their families are, and the State has a responsibility to provide for and protect all children equally. People having children they can’t afford has no bearing whatsoever on wider society.

In the current economic climate there’s plenty of families in Ireland with children struggling to make ends meet and they hadn’t planned on being unable to provide for their families or their children. What would be bad for Irish society, and we’ve been there before, were some of the measures that were used then to deal with people who were deemed socially undesirable or a burden on society. They were some truly shìtty people who came up with those ideas, and we learned from them that we shouldn’t repeat that again.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122444767#Comment_122444767

It does and it's bad for society as it costs the taxpayer more. When people say the wrong people are having kids they are talking about people who are physically capable of work and decide that working is not for them.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122435915#Comment_122435915

This does happen.

There is a national childcare subsidy.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122440997#Comment_122440997

I suggest we increase payments to disabled people.

Partly financed by severly clamping down on the number receiving DA.

Many on DA are not genuinely disabled.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122444989#Comment_122444989

Do you have proof for this? What is a genuine disability?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122444942#Comment_122444942

That’s neither how our taxation system, nor our welfare system operates. The rates at which anyone pays taxes or receives welfare are set by Government policy in the national budget. It wouldn’t matter if a family had 20 children, and those 20 children had 20 children each, the person who owns 20 properties will still have to pay whatever amount of tax is proscribed for ownership of those 20 properties.

Quietlife was referring to a very specific demographic, not just people who are physically capable of work and decide that work is not for them. What you have there is a moral argument, not an economic one. It was blatantly obvious the argument is never an economic one, but a moral argument in disguise. Rather like idiots that proclaim we need to encourage more Irish people to have children, which is fine, until you get into the details and it turns out they have more specific ideals in mind and it was never about encouraging Irish people to have more children, but rather all about themselves receiving more financial support from the State, and other people receiving none.

I’m not even going to bother asking what are your intentions for all those spare children that have had to be removed from families who couldn’t afford them, and how much you imagine that’s saving “the taxpayer”, because those children still have to be provided for, and the outcomes for the majority of children in the care of the State aren’t much to write home about.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122435915#Comment_122435915

Working families are milked by the government to subsidise the lives of layabouts local or imported.

We may on paper look to be a wealthy country, but with the cost of living crisis a lot of working families are living pay cheque to pay cheque.

The middle class are being sucked dry by the government to the point where their is not enough monetary difference to working a lot of jobs compared to doing nothing.

Are you mad their is no way the goverment will actually try help working families in a cost of living crisis, they tax them to the bone and have them pay huge creche fees for the audacity to work.

It would make sense to encourage working families to be able to have more kids but our goverment doesn't deal in common sense.

They can find money down the back of the couch for anyone but the middle class.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122445270#Comment_122445270

And I'm criticising how our welfare system works as we don't deal with the people who take advantage of our generous sw system. Children removed from families is a separate topic and in any case children removed from a family would be due to abuse rather than poverty

Geuze

Why are our disability figures so high?

Of the three people I know on DA, none are what reasonable people would call disabled.

While they may not be suited for regular serious employment, they are not what the general public would consider as disabled.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122445342#Comment_122445342

The general public aren’t making the decision, thankfully.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122445331#Comment_122445331

We do, they’re dealt with by the legal system. If you suspect fraud, report it, and the authorities will deal with it. It doesn’t cost the taxpayer anything either to provide resources to do this, it’s funded by public funds.

Sure what else are you expecting would be done with the extra children which by your own standards, their parents are unable to provide for them? They’re not going to be able to provide for their existing children any better if you cut their welfare off because they’re not willing to work.

The welfare and taxation systems in this country are fine. Could do with greater investment in infrastructure , education and healthcare, but that’s a question of Government being able to budget without increasing taxation. There’s plenty of wastage of public funds without getting our tits in a twist about the less than 1% of the population in receipt of welfare which you are of the opinion they shouldn’t be receiving because they keep having children.

Thank fcuk this is nothing more than an academic discussion 😂

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122445342#Comment_122445342

I've had to apply for Domiciliary Care Allowance for my son who has autism and an intellectual disability. The forms are big and need a lot of input from lots of people. This is the allowance given for somebody who will, when they turn 16, be eligible for disability. I fully expect that when that time comes we'll have to fill out more big forms and chase down doctors notes and so on. It's not as simple as ticking a box to say you're disabled, it's a process. It involves the department officials as well as doctors.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122445398#Comment_122445398

Yeah and I'm sure they would be quick to take action.. oh wait isn't it the same system that allows people to live in a counsel house for years without paying rent. Nobody is in favour of removing children from a family due to poverty.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122445644#Comment_122445644

Ok I think it’s fair to say you haven’t got that far yet as to what to do with all these children that will have to be provided for if not simply removed from parents who can’t afford to provide for them. Like TUSLA don’t have enough to be doing without adding to their workload causing an additional and unnecessary burden on “the taxpayer” who’s apparently funding all this craic.

Of course they won’t be quick to take action because they too have an already massive workload, funded by the taxpayer, not very well funded, but funded nonetheless.

It’s not the same system, no, that’s a different system, overseen by council housing authorities aided by approved housing bodies and various other agencies funded by the HSE, DSP and a few other groups, funded by public funds, or the taxpayer, if you like.

So far I’m not seeing any great savings for the taxpayer in your ideas, I’m only seeing even shìttier outcomes for the children involved, which would explain why Government aren’t too keen on the idea of inflicting even greater misery on people who are already living in poverty.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122445685#Comment_122445685

I haven't got that far yet as I don't make things up to suit my argument which you are doing now. Do you have evidence of this extra cost for Tusla? Yes living on benefits is hard but it's certainly not poverty like in a 3rd world country which I am happy to see.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122446423#Comment_122446423

I don't make things up to suit my argument

Ohh you dooo 😁 But that’s ok because we’re just spitballing here and there isn’t a hope in hell your suggestions are ever likely to be so much as even considered, let alone implemented as the cost of funding services to achieve your aims would be far greater than the cost of providing welfare to parents directly.

Do I have any evidence that an increase in demand for TUSLAs services would mean extra costs for TUSLA?

I’m not sure that’s even a serious question:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/tusla-ceo-says-referrals-up-14-per-cent-so-far-this-year-1525826.html

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430590#Comment_122430590

I don't think this is to prevalent here, but it's becoming a major issue in Japan, I know that for sure.

I can see why, kids are expensive, around €250,000 each, it's a major drain on finances. Plus you've to look after a human for 18 years at least. On top of that there's all that incel rubbish.

A child raised well though that's gets a job etc will contribute approx €1,000,000 in income tax over their lifetime, plus all the economic activity their life will create.

It's just a case of the right people have the right amount of kids.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122445342#Comment_122445342

Because Irish people are generally morally good.

We have among the highest rates of Down Syndrome, Spina Bifida, and other (birth) issues in the world, people in other countries generally speaking abort those pregnancies as soon as an issue like that is discovered.

This is a nasty (but I feel accurate) answer, and I apologise if I have offended anyone.

Quitelife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122449269#Comment_122449269

The right people are struggling to afford kids is the problem…meanwhile the wrong people have lots of them to get more welfare/benefits to spend on drugs or in some families large headstones/lavish communions etc ….bottom line the right people are been outbred in a growing number of Irish Communities .

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122452786#Comment_122452786

The right people, as you put it, aren’t struggling to afford children they don’t have. Billy’s figures are pie in the sky nonsense that would be like pointing out that most people are struggling to afford a mortgage. They’re not struggling to afford a mortgage if they don’t have one.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122452786#Comment_122452786

Who are "the right people" and "the wrong people"? Do you have proof that people have children so they can spend money on drugs?

Or is this just thinly veiled racism?