(Site is a graveyard - How can boards save itself?) Any update?

TheChrisD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545772#Comment_122545772

I mean that's also a factor that definitely doesn't help things. Most of the time the major holdup in DRP is that one has to exhaust "discussion with the mod that issued" first before anything else. Really though, a mod team of a forum — and also the CMods of the category — should be able to speak for/defend the assumed rationale of the original issuing mod.

The process would go a lot better if it went something like this:

• DRP can be started without having to exhaust discussion with original mod, and PM conversation of the action (which is usually automated, I think?) should be able to be posted immediately without requiring any silly "permission" from the mod that issued it.
• Once started, there is a 24 hour period for any mod of the forum to respond. If DRP started without exhausting discussion with original mod, this period is extended to 72 hours.
• Failing a response, or if manually requested to go up a level, there is then another 24 hour period for a CMod to respond.
• Failing a response, of if manually requested to go up a level, there is a final 24 hour period for an Admin to respond.
• If no response from any level, the original mod action is considered null and void.

I hate reiterating Reddit, but man, if we left any mod action appeal sit untouched in our modmail for even 12 hours; then we're not doing our role correctly.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545911#Comment_122545911

You understand the nature of mods being volunteers? No volunteer should have to be kept to time scales like that.

Personally, I'd scrap the DRP.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545880#Comment_122545880

I just dropped into the thread dude, you have a big cmod badge and a cool picture of a horse.

Harsh comments are not tolerated across the site at all no matter how scummy/nice the person who fired the comment out is - is that correct?

As I said at the bottom, not taking any side at all - your comment that I quoted is harsh on its own two legs without the full context.

Please don’t take this as a personal attack or anything of the sort, it’s just the sort of thing I feel the site could use less off.

along with mods closing threads with comments like “it’s terrible Joe”. Not naming any names 😂

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122541483#Comment_122541483

I didn't quote this yesterday as I wasn't going to rise to it, however you're replying to a poster who quoted one of my posts so I'm going to assume the body of your post references me. If that's not the case I'm open to correction.

You accuse me of being a narcissist and then go on to question my mental health.

You are supposed to set an example as a moderator, yet here you are accusing me of gaslighting you and making spurious accusations about me as a person and my mental health.

I have held my hands up on this thread and admitted I haven't always behaved perfectly, I've outlined how I propose to reduce the amount of petty disagreements I end up involved in and for that you and others piled on with abuse a cod psychology.

You're telling people how awful I am but you can't even acknowledge your own poor behaviour.

TheChrisD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545932#Comment_122545932

Yea, actually I think I do understand:

When a site is as busy or as active as here or Reddit, someone has to be able to respond promptly. Whether that's the original mod, or another member of the team at that level or above.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545937#Comment_122545937

Context matters. Feedback matters. It's why I'm trying to engage but I'm not going to have someone lie blatantly about me repeatedly without calling it out. It's a fair response if you add the context.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545944#Comment_122545944

This isn't Reddit.

TheChrisD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545960#Comment_122545960

Yea, it's in much worse shape than Reddit; the concern of which was sort of the original premise of this thread to begin with.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545911#Comment_122545911

I would agree with your ideas for the streamlining of the steps, but the timelines I think as mentioned I can't see being a runner for boards. I don't think that the mod tools are sufficient either for the process mentioned.

Warnings that have triggered forum or site bans* though, ideally if they could be expedited, as they have major blocking consequences

* Yes I know they require someone to reg a new account to query.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545946#Comment_122545946

Context doesn’t matter when it comes to warnings though does it? Maybe there is differences among mods on how they approach warnings and messages but I’d hope a sweeping statement like that would be flagged as uncivil in a non feedback thread. Because a a reader without the context I see a moderator telling a user that they are broadly disingenuous. (Maybe they are).

if I was a non signed in member reading that from a moderator I’d certainly think twice about signing up to the site.

Again, just my thoughts (I could just be a clown also).

And I think I speak for many here when I say - it’s refreshing to see moderators like you engaging here and discussing the site issues. We have had some big controversial issues in the country lately and I have seen mods sit back a bit and let conversation and debate happen on the site - so thank you for that!

TheChrisD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545993#Comment_122545993

I mean if those timelines aren't really a runner for the current crop of people in those roles; then honestly, there needs to be a personnel change.

Or, y'know, the people who are actually getting paid to manage this website — if any still exist — need to get stuck in themselves.

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545880#Comment_122545880

You are a moderator. Harsh comments that (potentially) overstep the site rules shouldn't come from you.

You patently and obviously show distain for this poster with your posts. You attack the poster, not the post.

Your posts would have received sanctions if they were made by others and directed towards people who's views you agree with.

I can see why he would be frustrated.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546041#Comment_122546041

Seems to be more down to the size of the current crop of people, lack of numbers, which has been mentioned repeatedly on the thread as an issue.

Necro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545911#Comment_122545911

Dude, half the problems are because there aren't enough mods… what you're proposing would have every sanction dragged through DRP hoping to get off on some whimsical timeframe technicality. So would actually increase the workload on the current mod teams.. how on earth would that resolve any matters.

Besides, you'd have to get someone to lift the original sanction and if you can't get them to even do a DRP how are you going to get them to do that!

TheChrisD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546065#Comment_122546065

Then either a) the size of the mod team site-wide needs to be bolstered; or b) the current crop need to be empowered more — like all mods become CMods of their category, and can undo other mod sanctions.

awec

We are not going to model the boards modding on how r/Ireland is modded, I do not think users would appreciate that.

Edit: to be clear, I'm not passing comment on how r/Ireland is moderated, just pointing out that what works for reddit would not work here.

Smee_Again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122545374#Comment_122545374

Support the assertion? This thread if full of people suggesting rules changes, some of which are to make the place better for all and some of which are so those individual posters get sanctioned less.

As for the ad homenim allegation; pointing out that you're personalising comments not directed at you or to you isn't an ad homenim.

And if you think it is then maybe that explains the persecution complex you appear to have.

Lastly, nowhere did I say you shouldn't be replying to me.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546118#Comment_122546118

Hey Chris - do redit moderators get anything at all from moderating?

I for one have no idea why the boards mods do it as they get absolutely nothing.

Before I proposed they get free ad credit for adverts.ie / done deal but I’m not even sure now if those sites are owned by the same entity anymore. (if they are this is something I’d like to see or similar)

TheChrisD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546223#Comment_122546223

Very occasionally, the Reddit admins might offer up discount or gift codes for certain services; but that's only been offered maybe twice in the last five years — I think I've been offered like €15 credit for an online snack website, and three months free Premium for that Calm relaxation app thing.

There's also been those mod meetups mooted, and I believe there was one held in Dublin before I started modding there; but those have been pretty heavily curtailed since the pandemic.

But generally, no. We do it purely because we want to help curate an online community.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546015#Comment_122546015

Sure and the context is a good few pages of a 60-page thread so I get that it's not obvious but at some point, I can't just let statements like that go when that person has posted at least a dozen about just me.

I don't touch the overwhelming majority of CA threads. I only really post on the UK ones, the gript one, the anxiety one and occasionally the Harris v Trump one. Stuff like Israel-Palestine, Ukraine, and refugees I don't touch. That's an important detail and the opposite has presented as fact here by more than one poster.

But yeah, I do want the place to succeed but I don't see it, sadly.

TheChrisD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546267#Comment_122546267

When you say you "don't touch" those threads; is that purely in the scope of a regular user browsing and commenting on them, or does it also include the scope of being a CMod of that category responding to reports emanating from those threads?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546267#Comment_122546267

"Stuff like Israel-Palestine, Ukraine, and refugees I don't touch."

Hmmmm….. but you review moderation of such threads ..

And have fairly strong opinions, which you are entitled to have, on them. Look at your signature again and comments on this thread re abusive terms like orcs etc

Conflict of interest??

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546363#Comment_122546363

Furze, I do not know why you and others keep going on about this "conflict of interest" stuff.

Where on earth did you and others ever get the notion that someone who disagrees with you cannot possibly moderate you? This is back to some people thinking they should be allowed to post whatever they want, because it's their opinion or their take on the facts, and be free of all consequences for doing so. If any action is taken, it's because of a perceived bias, rather than acknowledging that there was any wrongdoing.

We request that moderators, as much as possible, do not moderate discussions that they are actively involved in. There is no requirement, nor will there ever be, that moderators do not moderate anything that they hold an opinion on. This would be nonsensical and unworkable.

anewme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546487#Comment_122546487

Back to the old "free speech" mantra.

There is, of course, free speech.

There are also consequential actions as a result of that free speech.

People don't think the second one applies to them.

In a place where there are not enough Mods already, people want to be able to pick and choose who moderates them?

The DRP sucks up a lot of Mod time - can that be streamlined in any to do away with time sinks? Maybe limit how many DRP's a person can start?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546549#Comment_122546549

There is, of course, free speech.

Not on Boards. Never has been.

I already note some DRP streamlining, with DRPs involving 1 or even more than half a dozen warnings lumped together under 1 appeal, effectively getting the same result, instead of 1 user making several DRPs they have 1 DRP for several warnings etc.

awec

Changing DRP is something we'll take from this thread. We have to balance it being fast and easy with posters still thinking it's worthwhile.

anewme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546569#Comment_122546569

Well there is free speech in so far as you can say what you like.

Boards.ie just dont have to entertain it.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546487#Comment_122546487

I've been subjected to treatment from Ancapailldorcha that wouldn't be tolerated from anyone else.

Having my mental health called into question and being psychoanalysed.

When posters talk about conflicts of interest , it's that type of overtly aggressive behaviour that they're talking about not a simple difference of opinion.

droidman123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546732#Comment_122546732

Report him,when that doesnt work email mike.

Flaneur OBrien

Another bit of feedback:

Boards should take a much firmer approach with timesinks. We all know who they are and the site wouldn't suffer a jot if they were all thrown out.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546819#Comment_122546819

I can't report anyone currently unfortunately.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546910#Comment_122546910

I reported him when he was baiting a poster to post something a mod warned could not be discussed.

I would rightfully expect a ban if me or you done such a thing.

It seems some people are not held to the same standard as others and the report button is a waste of time in a lot of cases.

JP Liz V1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546834#Comment_122546834

Sorry but what is timesinks, another for the glossary meanings thread

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547090#Comment_122547090

I believe they mean users who generally run afoul of the rules and then sealion the life out of the mods.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547090#Comment_122547090

A timesink is someone who takes up disproportionally more time with a mod than any other average, typical user.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547111#Comment_122547111

Yup.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546487#Comment_122546487

Well Awec, let me explain that I've acquired this notion of bias through empirical experience of the site over a number of years. Yes indeed I agree that they can indeed moderate. The question is rather how they moderate, can they do it fairly and in a polite, unbiased & transparent manner.

This must be abundantly clear at this stage as many posters mention it as a factor that undermines credibility of how the site is managed.

And to be clear again, the case is made on behalf of all good faith posters, the sort any site wants to keep, regardless of their points of view.

My only advice is that moderation of threads should be limited very strictly to matters that legally might affect the site. And /or matters that are very clearly laid out in a site charter. None of this shaping threads, warning users when a moderator makes personal judgement calls as to anecdote and opinion.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547472#Comment_122547472

Think you mean at best, anecdotal evidence that's largely influenced by your own biases.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122546834#Comment_122546834

The irony of it all!!! Ah Jaysus. Maybe Boards should take a much firmer approach with posters who are continually trying to restrict other posters and what can and can't be debated. We all know who they are and the site wouldn't suffer a jot if they were all thrown out! :)

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547487#Comment_122547487

Throwing out users goes against what you just argued for, that mods only moderate speech that's strictly per se illegal.

And if you want the kind of 'free for all' unlimited speech shithole you're alluding to may I suggest Stormfront or 4chan or something, where you can feel free to espouse such not-technically-illegal but batshit views as 'hitler did nothing wrong' etc. or even just generally being a complete asshole to other users, insulting them personally, and other toxic behavior, but that's never, ever been the kind of place Boards is or aspires to be.

Moderators may, from time to time, moderate. That's why the place uses human moderators, not bots, and charters have never been perfect catch-alls, least of all thanks to rules-lawyering sealions.

ancapailldorcha

I'm confused. We need more moderation and a more legalised DRP but also less or no moderation?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547487#Comment_122547487

Seriously, think this through. Why?

They don't take up volunteer moderators time disproportionally. The problem that boards has is that there's not enough mods to police the site. One part of the reason no one really wants to mod is because it takes up time. If boards.ie could lesson the amount of time people have to mod, it would become more attractive. Being strict with timesink's/sealions call-them-what-you-will, is a response to that.

There is no freedom of speech on boards.ie and being strict with the guarding of moderators and their time should be something that is continually assessed and worked on.

The internet is a big place for people that don't agree with this, and they can find many, many other forums to ruin.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547514#Comment_122547514

You're quite right of course, I was inconsistent there. There should be a place for posters like Flaneur to express their opinions. And let those who disagree with their opinions the same free space.

There are indeed many sites about to discuss matters. The USP of boards though is that it is by and large an Irish site for discussion. You expect other posters to pick up on local references and matters of expression and culture. When they don't you begin to wonder sometimes.

Anyway, I may shut up for a while.. in case I'm accused next of being a 'timesink'

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547472#Comment_122547472

My only advice is that moderation of threads should be limited very strictly to matters that legally might affect the site. And /or matters that are very clearly laid out in a site charter

If the bar for moderation was legal issues and strict adherence to what's enumerated in charter the place would be an absolute mess. CA would be unreadable. It would be impossible for every potential problem to be listed in the charter, so there would be endless ways for posters to ruin threads and forums.

I suspect you are fully aware of this.

Users should treat forum charters as a guide to get a sense of what is and what isn't going to be tolerated, and also look at the forum contents to get a feel for the place. The charter is an outline of the spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law.

I think the overwhelming majority of users have little to no issue figuring out where the line is and then staying on the right side of it, unfortunately there are always a few who struggle. Lowering standards and allowing a free for all is not the solution for this issue.

It is a mods job to shape a thread, in the sense that it's their job to steer threads on topic, to get rid of trolls, to stop soapboxing, to stop abuse, to stop threads being derailed and to stop repetitive discussions. Ultimately the mod is there to keep things enjoyable for all.

Twitter is a great example of what happens when you remove standards. What was once an engaging and interesting corner of the internet is now a cesspool of pure brain rot. We will not be following that path.

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547609#Comment_122547609

Just a follow up on that point on Twitter I posted an example yesterday regarding the use of Twitter on this site not sure if you or any other admin saw it but would appreciate some feedback.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547646#Comment_122547646

We aren't going to ban people linking to twitter content. However, posters are responsible for everything they put in their post.

Posting something from Twitter is not a way to skirt around the rules. Obviously, context is key here, whether the user is link dumping or not, but if we think someone is using Twitter content as a proxy to evade mod action on harmful or hateful content then mods can still take action.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547609#Comment_122547609

"It is a mods job to shape a thread, in the sense that it's their job to steer threads on topic, to get rid of trolls, to stop soapboxing, to stop abuse, to stop threads being derailed and to stop repetitive discussions. Ultimately the mod is there to keep things enjoyable for all."

Thank you for your honesty and for laying it out clearly. Boards threads are at the whim of moderators. And open debate within the rules of civility is therefore not guaranteed and is at the personal discretion of said moderators.

I've already formed the opinion that some subjects simply can't be discussed on boards. It's a great pity to see this applies arbitrarily to all manner of others.

Where's the exit button? Why is it not possible to simply close an account now? Like the old version of the site. Is it even legal not to provide a ready means to close an account?

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547696#Comment_122547696

The role of a moderator is hardly surprising.

Practically any forum (online or otherwise) anywhere is subject to a degree of moderation. Even our political debates are subject to moderation.

You can close your account by emailing the office, hello@boards.ie.

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547696#Comment_122547696

You should just quit the thread now for trying to pick up on that point. Laughable.

I.R.Y.E.D

Made this suggestion in the previous iteration of this thread, but going to suggest it again.

Would it be possible to get a stickie with links to various services that can help people like there is in after hours and personal issues sub that can be kept up to date for CA and the conspiracy theories sub

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547714#Comment_122547714

Its been clear for the last few iterations of this thread that the complaints of "bias" and "censorship" or "free speech" was just those incapable of participating in a civil manner deciding it was everyone elses problem BUT their own and that the rules needed to be removed entirely to suit their standard.

That style of posting they want doesn't work on a forum unless its 4chan forums. They need a private blog or twitter account.