Merge Irish Defence Forces and An Garda Siochana

Soc_Alt

To me it's time we merge Irish Defence Forces and An Garda Siochana together.

The dog on the street knows Irish Defence Forces couldn't protect Ireland from external threats but they do have the benefit of providing better fitness, training and structure to what is currently An Garda Siochana.

When then might get an Elitely trained police force in Ireland.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361528/merge-irish-defence-forces-and-an-garda-siochana

Do you mean armed Gardai as a matter of course? I think it will eventually head that way.

I always have admired how Ireland has managed to have a state with law and order without the need for armed Gardai. Only the special branch armed section brought in on occasion.

But in Ireland these days there are gougers with guns/syringes and so on but the Gardai (for the most part) only have pepper spray/cameras. That imbalance won't be able to continue for too long.

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122428601#Comment_122428601

We could of course merge the army with Gardai and disarm the army 🤷🏻‍♂️.

Bobson Dugnutt

No beating around the bush here - that’s a very stupid suggestion.

spillit67

They fufill different functions.

The defense forces should not be in day to day interaction with the public save for exceptional circumstances. I think it’s pretty clear internationally why this is a problem.

Our police force have their issues but it is historically ignorant to not see how their establishment as an unarmed police force has led to a stable and liberal democracy.

Soc_Alt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122428642#Comment_122428642

Why

Bobson Dugnutt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122428666#Comment_122428666

see the post above.

Soc_Alt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122428679#Comment_122428679

Which one.

Isthisthingon?

This is a 100% Genuine question and is not meant as a P*sstake but Excluding the troops that go on UN peace keeping missions and the Bomb Squad what does the Army actually do?

Correct me if I'm wrong but they no longer provide the armed escorts to/ from the banks for cash deliveries, They are being taken out of portlaoise prison as the risk is no longer there ( something I did not know they did).

The last time I saw them on active duty was helping people in the floods in Midleton.

Aside from that its Paddy's day parades or driving trucks/ jeeps up the M9.

To repeat - not a dig at anyone in the forces - genuine interest in what the sitting army is doing, happy to be corrected

Soc_Alt

It would increase our police force by 7000. All future police force members would get training from both Templemore and Army Barracks around the country leading to a more elite police setup with multiple units.

CookingGuy

Doesn't seem very well thought out, and there's a reason it's never been done anywhere else.

"they do have the benefit of providing better fitness, training and structure to what is currently An Garda Siochana."

According to who? The Irish army isn't well known for being well trained, they're better know as producing a wide assortment of criminals, as a Google search of "Irish army/soldier court" will show.

The Irish army should be scrapped, they'd last pissing time against any well equipped and determined force, their personnel should be offered a generous redundancy or the chance to join the Navy/Air Corp (after rigourous background checks and drug tests), speaking of which, both of those organisations should be merged together along with the coast guard.

Compared to other police forces, the Gardai are a notional force at best, the general public shouldn't have to rely on luck to determine whether they will be protected and served, but currently that's what we have.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122428642#Comment_122428642

i thought so too at first. But maybe not as silly as it seems.

This would mean we'd have a gendarmerie model like a few continental countries.

And the scobes dont do much scobing when the gendarmes are around.

Lest they get the old wood shampoo.

We could have a model which moves up in intensity. Gardai, gendarmerie, military.

Gendarmes typically do border, coastal patrol, anti-trafficking rescues.

All pie in the sky stuff but sure why not, its Friday.

whisky_galore

At no point in our history has the use of military to do police work has been a good idea.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122428782#Comment_122428782

i think Italy may have used the military to deal with the out of control ndrangheta. Successfully iirc.

Nux_BlackThumb

Yea, merge them and name them the Auxiliaries.

MarkR

I saw battlestar Galactica.

Commander William Adama : There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.

Would be piss funny though.

Soc_Alt

The Irish Defence forces do not defend the state.

The British Royal Air Force chase off the Russian Planes and Fishermen chase off the Russian Ships.

So again I ask why are both not merged that we have a tactical police force that also have full military training.

TheValeyard

No.

Admiral Adama had this one nailed.

Soc_Alt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430325#Comment_122430325

But only work our defence forces to for the state is provide assistants to the Gardai, Ambulance service and Fire Service.

So why not just merge the IDF and An Garda Siochana.

I've yet to see an argument not to.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122428642#Comment_122428642

And how.

Close this down.

thomil

Okay, here we go then

1.) Gardaí and the Defence Forces train for completely different missions and completely different operational requirements. For starters, whatever talk there is about the DF helping out in natural disasters etc., the heart of their mission is to kill any enemies. Just because there’s no current threat that doesn’t change the training. The basic mission of a soldier is to kill their enemy. The Gardaí are specifically trained, and equipped, not to kill unless absolutely necessary, and to deescalate a situation by non lethal means whenever possible. That’s why Gardaí are unarmed and while even countries with armed police forces usually don’t equip the regular police force with anything bigger than a 9mm pistol. Having someone dressed like a soldier and carrying an MP5, HK 416 or similar weapon rock up to your regular police call-out is going to be an escalation in itself and will only increase the potential for further escalation, whilst combining the training for soldiers and police forces will result in a combined force that will be worse at both jobs.

2.) Combining the forces will not automatically lead to an increased presence in the streets. A large number of roles within the defence forces effectively duplicate the police, given that both have completely separate management/command structures. If the forces were to be combined, a lot of these roles would be made redundant, grossly reducing the pool of manpower available to the new combined force. And that’s not even counting a lot of the specialists that joined up specifically to serve in the Defence Forces. You could easily end up with a new combined force that is not much larger than the current AGS, but with very few extra capabilities.

3.) The Defence Forces are subject to strict controls and restrictions with regards to their use within the country. And given the weapons that even a small military like the Irish one has at its disposal, that’s a good thing. If the DF and the Gardaí were to merge, a lot of these systems would still have to be rolled over into the new combined force to provide at least some vestigial defence capability. However, that new combined force would, by necessity, have far fewer operating restrictions than the defence forces currently have. And if my experience from back in Germany is anything to go by, anything the police have at their disposal WILL eventually be used, and more importantly abused. Having everyone and their mother stalked via the PULSE system is scary enough, I don’t want any such organisation to have 105mm howitzers or even mortars at their disposal.

4.) Legitimacy. A military has a very particular standing within international law, one that brings with it a number of obligations, but also a number of privileges. Law enforcement organisations lack this, so the members of a combined force would enjoy far fewer protections when, for example, deployed on a UN mission or trying to take down an uncooperative target vessel in Irish waters, such as happened with the MV Matthew a while back.

All of that is before the reasons that other posters mentioned, most crucially the fact that a government with a highly militarised police force would have far fewer scruples about using said force against their own people than they would with the military, since the latter has far more checks and balances in place.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122430272#Comment_122430272

ah now that one actually is a stupid post, on the surface, and after reflection.

Shoog

Thats just a terrible idea.

Eudaimonia

The solution is to up the defence forces spending to that of our European counterparts to 4Bn or 3% of our GDP. Put one quarter of that into cyber defence. Put three quarters of that 4 BN into updating our marine and air defence infrastructure.

The utter cheek and gall of our defence forces to claim a substantial chunk of that to pay their salaries is treasonous. Serve. Build an infrastructure to defend our nation so the impartial humans who can’t separate their will for power against the need for adequate defences for the nation are sidelined.

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361528/merge-irish-defence-forces-and-an-garda-siochana

I think you want a version of the French Gendarmerie.I do not love their black uniform.Up close,fully armed and ready for action they are intimidating.They use a fantastic baton action.Bring them here.

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122431093#Comment_122431093

Interestingly Gendermes in France are part of French armed forces with roles that vary from search and rescue, riot control and service abroad.