Venzuela votes today

amandstu

From the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/28/venezuela-election-sunday-maduro-urrutia "Venezuela votes in election that could end 25 years of socialist rule"

First time I have heard the Venezuelan regime described as "socialist".

Is that a correct description?

I would be happy to describe myself as "socialist". How can that regime be called "socialist" if they don't have free and fair elections?

Hande hoche!

Maduro and his predecessor were leaders of a Venezuelan Socialist party. Have seen their regime described as such in the past.

Regimes can be charitably described as deceptive in their language. The number of countries that have "Democratic" in their official names that are anything but..

Hopefully have a change in the political leadership in Venezuela. Would probably be beneficial to the country and the region. Wouldn't hold my breath all the same.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122436416#Comment_122436416

It is the Guardian describing them as "Socialist".I don't care what they call themselves, but for the Guardian to describe them as Socialist gives Socialism a very bad (execrable) name and ,to my mind wholly inaccurate.

Do any of the political parties in Ireland ,UK or Europe (or anywhere) who call themselves Socialist support that regime?

Hande hoche!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122436517#Comment_122436517

I think the support has pretty much dried up. The Corbyn era Labour Party had some members that were somewhat warm. Think the apex was under the Chavez when the likes of actors and mainstream parties lauding his accomplishments. Part of the later period support was more about opposing the American hegemony than supporting the Venezuelan government.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122436618#Comment_122436618

I see.It seems to me nobody says Kennedy's legacy is tarnished because of the Bay of Pigs.Was he in the loop?

I read N. Mailer's very long book about the whole thing years ago but I don't remember if it went all the way up to the White House(in his version)

Kermit.de.frog

Socialism always ends the same way, dictatorship. Some don't want to live in equal poverty with the masses.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122436826#Comment_122436826

The UK Labour Party and the French Socialistes brought in a dictatorship?

Socialism without free and fair election is imo a misnoma .

Hande hoche!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122436768#Comment_122436768

In fairness to Kennedy, that was largely an inherited scheme from the Eisenhower administration. He made the decision to not supply direct US military air support. To some that was to result in the failure of the operation, others argue that it helped the reduce the bloodshed. Vietnam and his level involvement would be a more contentious issue.

As regards Socialism, it brings up the economic and political aspects. On the political side, some may feel that free and fair elections are a necessary attribute (possibly yourself?). If one is looking at the economics side, quite a few authoritarian and despotic regimes would operate a Socialist system.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361819/venzuela-votes-today

Since when do socialist regimes have free and fair elections?

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122437006#Comment_122437006

If they don't they are not Socialist. Was France not Socialist under Mitterand? The UK under the Labour Party.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122436952#Comment_122436952

An entirely necessary attribute.Any exceptions are indefensible (except in conditions of war ,obviously)

Democracy trumps ideology.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122437428#Comment_122437428

The USSR was socialist. China is socialist. Cambodia was socialist.

That's the end of the socialist spectrum Venezuela exists on, not the left wing party in a democratic country model you're outlining.

Labour being in government in the United Kingdom now doesn't mean it's become a socialist society, it's just socialist flavoured capitalism without any commitment to the harsh realities of actual socialism.

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122437450#Comment_122437450

The USSR was a failed attempt at communism. Socialism is popular in Europe and includes the idea of national healthcare and social welfare.

Venezuela and Cuba have both suffered terribly under USA sanctions.

Since 2005, the United States has imposed targeted sanctions on Venezuelan individuals and entities that have engaged in criminal, antidemocratic, or corrupt actions.

USA has been supporting the Saudi dictatorship and trying to crush Venezuela but nobody here seems to be aware of that?

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122437450#Comment_122437450

USSR was communist last time I looked as is China Both fascist dicatorships who may have used the description "Socialist" for propaganda purposes.

UK Labour party and PS in France are nowhere on those fuckers' spectrum.

Venezuelan regime may call itself "socialist" for all I care.They are no better than Russia/China.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122437684#Comment_122437684

The United States have a lot to answer for in Venezuela without a doubt, but Chavez knew what he was getting into with the United States before the PSUV took control of the country, the Cuban situation was a case study half a century in the making, the US was committed to eliminating socialism globally since the end of WW2, so yes their sanctions were and are draconian but they weren't a surpise to anyone in the Bolivarian Revolution movement.

As for Saudi Arabia, that entire state as it exists now is an invention of the US and it's oil economy. The whole thing stinks to high heaven and always has done. The US has a lot to answer for on a lot of fronts but socialism didn't become toxic because of US sanctions alone. US sanctions didn't send 20 million Russians to Gulags to die or make the Khmer Rogue murder people by the hundreds of thousands, socialism got there all by itself.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122437721#Comment_122437721

The term USSR stands for Union of Socialist Soviet Republics.

I'm not trying to be unkind here, but your understanding of the political ideology you claim to subscribe to doesn't seem particularly robust.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122437735#Comment_122437735

As i said USSR is considered a communist state .Words can mean whatever you want them to mean.

Same with China -Communist.

European Socialism is not Communist unlesss you believe the **** that comes from Trump's mouth.

I have lived through the Cold War.I think I know who those fuckers are.

They weren't socialists.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122437768#Comment_122437768

They were socialists.

You're choosing to say that words can mean whatever YOU want them to mean.

Communism is the end result of Socialism according to all the socialists I've ever spoken to. Communism was never achieved because socialism failed they'll tell you.

If you lived through the cold war I'd have to assume it wasn't at the forefront of your attention.

I'm not trying to be condescending or rude here but you've got a lot of things back to front on this topic unfortunately.

Two posts ago you said China was a Fascist state, now you're saying it's Communist. Communism and Fascism are at the opposite ends of the political spectrum, even of they do result in bad outcomes (see the notion of horseshoe theory for more on that one), they're not the same thing.

engineerws

There seems to be some confusion here. FYI

https://www.britannica.com/question/How-is-communism-different-from-socialism

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122437794#Comment_122437794

No problem describing communists as fascists when they share the same attitudes to human rights.

I woild not call Gorbachev (communism with a human face) a fascist as his aims were benign and daring.

There was a revolution in Portugal in 74 .The Socialists of M Soares took power and Communists were shown the exit very quickly.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution

Socialism did not lead to communism.It repelled it.

Maybe you talk to too many political types.

nullzero

There's far too many people looking to exonerate socialism of having been involved in anything negative at any point in history.

Socialism is an extremist ideology just like Fascism. I have no time for either of them because they are meat grinders for human beings and belong to the past. But by all means convince yourself it's a benevolent movement that is kind and loving and not at all as effective a platform for psychopaths to indulge their blood thirst as fascism was.

When facts are ignored because they're inconvenient to someone's beliefs you can never have a reasonable discussion so let's agree to disagree and forego the formalities of an argument that will lead nowhere.

Lets hope the people of Venezuela get a break and can build some sort of lives for themselves, they need to get a handle on all the kidnappings ASAP and move away from failed state status.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361819/venzuela-votes-today

Surprised that someone has not heard the word socialist in the context of the Venuzuela regime.

They are routinely called socialist by the likes of the BBC, Irish Times, UK Independent etc.

BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-48121148

Their socialist PSUV party has, over the past two decades, gained control of key institutions, including much of the judiciary, the electoral council and the Supreme Court.

Irish Times: https://www.irishtimes.com/world/americas/2023/03/17/deep-fake-news-videos-ramp-up-misinformation-in-venezuela/

The report, which was widely circulated in media supportive of President Nicolás Maduro’s socialist government, suggested claims about widespread impoverishment in oil-rich Venezuela had been “exaggerated”.

UK Independent: https://www.independent.co.uk/world/venezuela-election-maduro-controversy-gonzalez-b2587183.html

Venezuela is voting in the country’s hotly-anticipated election today (28 July), which could see the end of 25 years of socialist rule.

Wikipedia describes the ideology of the ruling party as:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Socialist_Party_of_Venezuela

Ideology	Socialism of the 21st century[2] Bolivarianism[3] Chavismo[4] Left-wing populism[5] Anti-imperialist

Probably hundreds of other sources.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122438505#Comment_122438505

Well I have not been keeping up then.Strikes me that this regime has described itself as Socialist and as such has debased the value of the term.

I am sickened that any regime that calls itself socialist can abuse the electoral process to the extent of preventing free elections.

I would not call it socialist -more antisocialist.

I would hardly call it a political movement of any decent description -other than a naked dictatorship.(a petro -dictatorship perhaps)

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122438549#Comment_122438549

Depends on your definition of socialism I suppose but certainly the idea that the Venezuelan regime is socialist is not a fringe one.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122438556#Comment_122438556

It is a regime and does not represent the country.

I reserve the description of a socialist party to one that represents its members and ,in time may represent the country as a whole.

.

Not to a regime that only represents its own narrow interests putting 2 fingers up to the country as a whole.

I remember when Venezuela was highly thought of in S America before Chavez dug his claws into the country.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122438605#Comment_122438605

Might you be thinking more of social democracy than socialism?

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122438616#Comment_122438616

.

I think we are getting into the weeds.Let us just hope the people of Venezuela can get this monkey off its back tonight.

downthemiddle

Looking less like socialism and more like a dictatorship in Venezuela.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz5rj2mzgevo

CalamariFritti

I'd say 'its complicated'.

After Chavez things got a little dodgy, hell South America is dodgy out anyway. Crime corruption civil war poverty. US sanctions and the ever present US hegemony dogma, biggest oil reserves on the planet, crime & corruption, political culture in South America does not compare to Europe. All of this means bad players galore. I wouldnt trust either side to act in good faith never mind tell the truth on anything. As nearly always whoever the US want to succeed are painted as the 'good guys' for some reason despite endless evidence to the contrary especially in South America.

To be fair. If despite worlds biggest oil reserves and other riches the country is till piss poor wouldnt blame the people for possibly voting foreign friendly actors in. If no money trickles down anyway they might as well go for foreign capitalist exploitation at least maybe some jobs and infrastructure come their way that way.

Whether thats what happens who knows too many shenanigans and too many dodgy forces tearing at the place to know for sure what to believe or not.

Having said all that I dont really know whats up there going past a couple of essays and the usual news reports. Just what it sounds like.

plodder

They use an electronic voting system in Venezuela. Maduro has called the results based on an electronic tally that in itself can't be trusted. He could have pulled the figures out of his proverbial backside. They are also witholding access to many of the paper receipts which could be used to verify the results. Even then, the trouble with these systems is while in theory you should be able to verify by auditing only a random sample of paper receipts, but if Maduro's cronies get to select which ones to audit, then fraud could be occurring elsewhere.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122438978#Comment_122438978

They’re not mutually incompatible.

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122438978#Comment_122438978

Good breakdown on election process here

https://x.com/FiorellaIsabelM/status/1817666249721008574 one commentor says it's more secure than in the USA.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122440188#Comment_122440188

yes, the russia today journalist is the one to trust…..

silverharp

Im sure their elections are a model for the rest of us…..

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441478#Comment_122441478

Explain why

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441411#Comment_122441411

Do you have a source that says contrary?

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441545#Comment_122441545

spent the day watching a number of local news outlets yesterday, was in direct contact with people who were refused entry to observe the count

also, its russia today………? that should be enough

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441491#Comment_122441491

Blinken has concerns , and the CIA would know all about rigging elections ;-)

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361819/venzuela-votes-today

I would be happy to describe myself as "socialist". How can that regime be called "socialist" if they don't have free and fair elections?

Electorate vote socialists in, once socialists are embedded, the electorate must shoot them out to get rid of them. Case in point: Allende. Chavez was military, the socialists learned their lesson from Chile, control the army, plunder the wealth and distribute it to your buddies. Under capitalism the rich get powerful, under socialism the powerful get rich.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441615#Comment_122441615

What kind of an "explanation" is that ?Do you not have a thought process to call your own?

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441644#Comment_122441644

Are you claiming that Allende tried to hold onto power unconstitutionally?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122440188#Comment_122440188

One commentator is a shill or an idiot. I am sure the requested breakdown per polling station will be arriving anytime now to confirm the result though, otherwise it is just theatre. Right now we have the government and government controlled agencies simply announcing a result no one believes.

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441599#Comment_122441599

She used to be on a show called convocouch that was a progressive thing.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441650#Comment_122441650

its not my suggestion but is is a basket case economy and the leader wins another terms, seems legit?

and from wiki, case closed

 "More recently, Reporters Without Borders ranked Venezuela 159th out of 180 countries in its World Press Freedom Index 2023 and classified Venezuela's freedom of information in the "very difficult situation" level."

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441660#Comment_122441660

Allendes government had their own militias going around seizing property i.e. "armed robbery" when he was in government, despite only 36% of the vote, they were going full socialist, planned economy, nationalise everything, rampant inflation, price controls, declining production, shortages, the works. Allende and his supporters were not bothered about constitutionality of their actions.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441809#Comment_122441809

Link please.

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441966#Comment_122441966

Good article about Allende here

https://jacobin.com/2020/09/salvador-allende-chile-coup-pinochet

Described as top down and bottom up but that the USA backed a coup and installed Pinochet.

The new government rounded up thousands of people and held them in the national stadium, where many were killed. This was followed by brutal repression during Pinochet's rule, during which approximately 3,000 people were killed, while more than 1,000 are still missing.

However, the posters here seem to think that things would have been worse if Allende introduced social welfare?

Seems to be a very biased thread on Venezuela.

No links or proof but we must believe the election was a farce because…

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122441966#Comment_122441966

I should not need to, the playbook is well known, but here you go, while he was in power. https://web.archive.org/web/20240729201553/https%3A//www.nytimes.com/1971/01/28/archives/chiles-peasants-get-aid-in-seizing-farms.html

Last month, Dr. Allende granted a pardon to a group of leaders of this group who were in jail for bank robberies and other violent acts during the earlier Government of President Eduardo Frei Montalva, a Christian Democrat. Sergio Zorrilla, one of the pardoned leaders, said this week that his organization took credit for what he called the revolutionary peasant movement, which organized the Mapuche and other seizures.

Same playbook ran out in Venezuela and Zimbabwe leading to mass poverty and starvation. You must be part of the nomenklatura, to benefit from socialism, after all some are more equal than others. The demand for utter conformity is something that socialists try to explain away. In order to create their promised utopias, once in government they ultimately would have to respond to the normal resistance that comes when authorities are heavy-handed and when they try to expropriate one’s property and use it for political purposes. The military junta in Chile did not appear out of the blue, they responded in kind to put down an equally vicious gang of thugs.

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122442555#Comment_122442555

Bit off topic but sounds similar to the Irish land wars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_War

It sounds like you would be sympathizing with the landed gentry. The same playbook. Perhaps you could give us your capitalist take on Irish history? I assume you hated the poor.... despised James Larkin, etc

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122442711#Comment_122442711

You tell me. How was that resolved in the end, plus the trade war caused by the defaults. Ultimately a combination of economic migration across the British empire and United States (What happened to the whiteboys in the end). Combine that with the first world war that killed off the land owning aristocracy's heirs and debt defaults in the 1930s. In the end it was resolved relatively peacefully, the socialist thugs in Chile took whatever they wanted with no compensation offered, it should come as no surprise that people resent having their property stolen and would fight back where they can. In Venezuela the only choice is migrate or scam the system for what you can get.

Bobson Dugnutt

No statement of congratulations to him this time from SF?