Minors and Crime

JP Liz V1

I think the time has come for anonymity be taken away and minors who commit crimes like murder, rape and assault be named and tried as an adult, in Ireland and even worldwide we have minors committing awful heinous crimes and they are protected by not being named and then after perhaps a "light sentence" getting a new name and rebuild their life but what about their victims who are named and pictured

I applaud judges who allow names to be released

L Grey

deleted

advisemerite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058362528/minors-and-crime

You are free to think what you like but not a chance will that happen.

Pauliedragon

I posted this in the other thread but why do we need to know the name? I don't understand what it achieves.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058362528/minors-and-crime

Victims of sexual assault or rape are not named and pictured FFS.

Where in the name of Jesus do people get their information from.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122455330#Comment_122455330

It'll allow people to more easily point out when the perpetrator is from another country and therefore feed into more anti-immigrant rhetoric. That's why.

watchclocker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122455440#Comment_122455440

They are if they are murdered.

User567363

Sometimes people share names with others

P.s. Are you the same "JP Liz V1" that was arrested for selling an empty xbox box on adverts.ie??

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122455472#Comment_122455472

Where did I suggest there were not?

Read the OP again and read my reply.

Beta Ray Bill

I agree. Anonymity means that kids face no consequences from their piers (Friends, Aunts, Uncles, Grandparents, etc) and can be selective about who they tell (tell the people they're committing crimes with, bragging etc). A lot of the kids with problems have X number of convictions, where X is some abnormally high number given their age.

The issue is, if you take a 17 year old with 100+ convictions, it's quite clear that their parents never gave a f**k about them. Maybe they're worried now about the path their 17 year old is on now, but they definitely didn't put the work in when that 17 year old was younger.

The issue with anti social behavior in many parts of Dublin city being so out of control, means that more drastic/radical/out of the box ideas are needed.

Do we lock up the parents of kids that commit crimes? (Not for long, maybe a week or two weeks)
Do we tax or fine or cut off welfare to the parents of these kids?
Do we build more prison's for kids? (How do we pay for that? Do we tax the parents of those kids?)
Corporal Punishment? (10 lashes of a whip?)

I don't know answer for sure, I was a victim of a break in a few weeks back (4 teenage lads), I'm at about €2000 loss. Even if the Garda do catch them, I know nothing will happen them and I'm on the hook for the loss. Their parents wouldn't care either

I know some people say, the system has failed these kids, and to that I have the answer: "the system has failed to teach these kids that actions have consequences", and as soon as they turn 18 they're in for a fairly crappy life.

Fathom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058362528/minors-and-crime

Are you suggesting that all children committing serious violent crimes be “tried as an adult,” no matter how young they may be at the time of crime commission? For example, if they were 4 or 6 or 8 or 10 or 12 they could be tried as an adult too?

Or would you just be lowering the legal age of consent limit for teens and not preteens? Or some preteens, but not all preteens? If so, what young age would be the line, below which they could not be tried as an adult? Plus, what scholarly research can you cite for support of this age of demarcation?

If these children are “tried as an adult,” thereby treating them as an adult at the commission of the violent crime, with all the responsibilities of adults for such behaviors, should they also, now adjudicated adults, if tried and convicted, be sentenced as an adult?

And since being adjudicated as an adult, and if tried and convicted as an adult, be imprisoned as an adult with other adults, as well as “allowing names to be released,” like other adults?

Furthermore, if this child has been adjudicated to be “tried as an adult,” but the jury finds them innocent, do they continue afterwards to be treated as an adult, with all the responsibilities of an adult as when being tried?

Can children now adjudicated adults have the same rights and responsibilities as all adult citizens? For example, adults may be exposed to civil liabilities for their crimes beyond felony liabilities, plus adults have rights, including abilities to sue other adults, sign binding contracts with other adults, marry other adults, run for public office, drink alcoholic beverages, and volunteer for the military.

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122455456#Comment_122455456

And get it wrong a lot of the time. That 17 year old was from a Christian family. I assume now all those protesters will start burning down churches but somehow I doubt it. I suppose they're too busy sharpening the pitch forks and organising riots to read the news. That's if they can read.

JP Liz V1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122455475#Comment_122455475

No

JP Liz V1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122455440#Comment_122455440

Ana Kriegel

Why should boy A and B deserve anonymity?

JP Liz V1

It would save the wrong people getting blamed by speculation and also victims if they decide can waive their right to anonymity for the culprits to be named

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456068#Comment_122456068

Why do you need to know who they are?

JP Liz V1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456220#Comment_122456220

Why should they deserve anonymity?

Despite their age, they are stone cold brute killers, why shouldn't they be plastered all over media, they are as bad as the likes of Graham Dwyer

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456068#Comment_122456068

Let's say for arguments sake anonymity was removed and Boy A's real name is Firstname Lastname. Congratulations.

What do you do with that information? He's in jail for at least the next 12 years, by which point you'll likely have forgotten his name anyway. Probably half a dozen Lastname families living within 50km of you right now. In 13 years you could walk past him on the street and not recognise him anyway, and nothing to stop him changing his name when he gets out. So what use is their name to you? You say it might stop people getting blamed by speculation. Maybe people should stop speculating based on hearsay or what someone on Twitter said they heard from their cousin who is a guard and is definitely true.

Every day there are adult perpetrators of such crimes who are named and their images plastered all over the news for a few days during verdict & sentencing, and after that they're completely forgotten about. The likes of Graham Dwyer might not because he's spent so long trying different appeals etc that he brings himself more into the public consciousness, but if he spent the next 20 years in jail doing his time, even if he introduced himself to you in 21 years chances are you'd think "That name rings a bell" and you might never cop why.

Boy A and Boy B are in jail. That's what they deserve. Why do you need to know their names? Because I'd be willing to bet the only thing releasing their names would do would be people directing and channeling that hate to their families. And what good does that do?

NickNickleby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456284#Comment_122456284

Don't know how to quote part of a post...

That last paragraph is very important.

How does printing the name of ANY convicted criminal serve justice?

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456336#Comment_122456336

I have no objection to adults names being printed (save for where their anonymity is to benefit the victim rather than themselves), because like I say, their names, aside from the hugely publicised cases, tend to be up and gone like a fart in the wind anyway. Pick any newspaper today and there'll be plenty of names of people being sentenced for horrendous sh*t that will never be mentioned again. But in those cases, the anger of anyone in the public will still be directed at that person.

For minors, in this day and age of online brigading and stoking fires and people who benefit from the sale of pitchforks, that anger will be directed at the families. That serves nothing. So long as these criminals, adult or minors, are being charged and sentenced appropriately (f*ck you Judge Martin Nolan!) in accordance with the law, then giving us the names of minors serves no purpose.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456244#Comment_122456244

What difference would it make ?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456156#Comment_122456156

Victims already have that right, you want to take it away from them.

Why do you want to do that?

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456156#Comment_122456156

No it wouldn't.

If someone was named as Joe Bloggs when arrested/charged, then any other person walking the streets with the same name within a wide radius would be at risk of getting blamed and potentially battered.

I've seen personal evidence of that - a guy was arrested in a different country a few years ago for some violent crime (I forget exactly what) who had the same (fairly common) name as a friend of mine, and the number of abusive and threatening messages the friend got on social media over it was crazy, as was the level of violence threatened.

Now, as I said, he was hundreds of miles away in a different country, so was able to shrug it off, but if was within the same city, it would have been very different.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456284#Comment_122456284

You make excellent points and they are indeed all valid.

In addition to your point there is also the right to be forgotten which is think came in in 2014. Which means you can request that the like of google return no search results for your name relating to a crime you may have committed X years ago (I don't know the full details of it if I'm honest, but I'm fairly sure it's an EU directive)

My own opinion on this is part of the punishment is everybody knowing what you did. I think this is key to be honest, in that it helps criminals reform. The most reformed criminals who have turned their lives around are the ones that are fully open about what they have done.

That's being said, there's probably no hope of Boy A turning anything around if everyone knows who he is, given the gravity of the crime he committed. I sure wouldn't like to be living beside him when he gets out. Maybe he should stay locked up forever for what he did? I don't know.

For Anti Social Stuff though yes, 100% named.

Sardonicat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456068#Comment_122456068

Why should their innocent siblings lose theirs? Would you want to be known as the sister of someone's murderer and have people pre judging you based on the awful actions of someone else? Because that's exactly what would happen.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456606#Comment_122456606

See I think that's where some of the anti-social stuff is different, because everyone mostly knows who the scumbag scrotes are in their towns or estates even without there being any type of conviction. Same with anonymity for minors who commit worse crimes like Boy A and Boy B for example, the people in the area or who have a few connections to those families will already know who they are. You'll never have full anonymity. But there's no real reason why their names should be published just so aul' Francis Facebook can look up their families on Facebook and send them abuse because it makes her feel good.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456606#Comment_122456606

My own opinion on this is part of the punishment is everybody knowing what you did. I think this is key to be honest, in that it helps criminals reform. The most reformed criminals who have turned their lives around are the ones that are fully open about what they have done.

I don't think that is actually true for children.

It is one of the reasons highlighted in numerous reports which recommend life time anonymity for child offenders.

It sees no value in stigmatising children for the rest of their lives for crimes committed when they were children.

A lot of children who commit crimes are themselves prayed on by criminals.

In Norway for instance it's not the child that is just investigated, social services have the legal right to basically tear the family apart and remove the child from a poor situation and instead of criminalising that child they choose to rehabilitate.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456068#Comment_122456068

Ana Kriegel died.

A dead victim of crime does not have the same right to privacy as a living victim.

mvt

I would say that I don't need to know the name of boy A & B.

I would also say that I think boy A & B should know that there names would be made public if they decide to slaughter a fourteen year old girl.

I would also say that boy A & B should have their names made public when they turn eighteen but I accept that might just be me.

JP Liz V1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456590#Comment_122456590

If the real culprit named and pictured then your friend shouldn't have been a target

miamee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122457536#Comment_122457536

The real culprit obviously was named, that is how his friend of the same name was confused with the culprit.

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058362528/minors-and-crime

A "minor" is a legal or societal construct.Not so long ago a "minor" was under 6 years old.Mammies and Daddies should be named first and jailed.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456068#Comment_122456068

As it happens, there’s actually a kid who was in the same school, same class as one of them that has the exact same name.

He certainly doesn’t deserve the risk of having some have-a-go hero mixing them up.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122457105#Comment_122457105

You're probably right.

Even still a person knows the difference between right and wrong by 12/14, perhaps maybe from that age row back on some of the protections.

I get what you're saying about Norway, I've been there a few times and to be honest it's like comparing apples and oranges. There is significantly stronger social cohesion there due to many things. It would be great if we had that here but I cannot see it ever happening to be honest.

Like in Norway they try and fix the issue, here we just do suspended sentence or let them off. It's a very different approach. We haven't the money or the staff for prisons or rehab here.

The problem is so serious and complex that I can't think of an effective solution. (I normally can think of a solution for things…)

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122458437#Comment_122458437

Even still a person knows the difference between right and wrong by 12/14

I think it is more to do with the brain hasn't developed enough to understand the consequences of their actions.

Like in Norway they try and fix the issue, here we just do suspended sentence or let them off. It's a very different approach. We haven't the money or the staff for prisons or rehab here.

The Scottish have adopted key parts of Norway and Belgium's methods in dealing with child offenders.

I take your point, but the will has to be there to change it.

It isn't.