Reporting Social Welfare Fraud

suzieQue

This may not be popular but I have reported someone locally on a number of occasions for social welfare fraud. Nothing has ever come of it.

One of the couple claims disability allowance and their partner claims carers allowance. They both work in their own business which they advertise locally and also promote through social media. They employ 4 to 5 part time employees for part time work and pay mostly cash/Revolut. I know for a fact they accept payments through bank, stripe, Revolut etc, so there is a trace.

I won’t say what the business is on here but they are making massive amounts of money and are taking advantage of the social welfare system. I have always said live and let live but this is so brazen it’s hard to believe.

Social Welfare is something that is there for those who need it, both myself and my partner have relied on it at one point or another and I am very grateful. It’s also comforting to know that it’s there should anyone fall on hard times.

I have reported these people a number of times over the last 2 years and yet nothing has been done. As well as making online reports I have also sent hand written letters to both DSP and Revenue, but nothing. They still continue to claim (I have seen it with my own eyes.) and the business continues to thrive.

I have also reported this to Revenue, but I get the impression that DSP or Revenue just don’t seem to care enough to act on it. Is there anything else I can do to bring it to light?

The system is there for a reason and not to be abused, but my reports have all fallen on deaf ears.

Is there anything else I can do? I’ve read it’s a civil duty to report tax evasion and social welfare fraud but when nothing is ever done what’s the point?

Rows Grower

How could you possibly see them being paid disability and carers allowance?

suzieQue

He showed me his SW letters, and has bragged about it to others too.

mulbot

How do you know how much money they are making?

suzieQue

He showed me. There is no doubt as to what they are taking in per month, plus I know for certain they are on Disability and carers.

If I wasn’t certain or had any doubt, I wouldn’t have tried to report so many times.

It's possible they are (or their claim is) currently under investigation. How long ago did you report it?

mulbot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122525469#Comment_122525469

So he's showed you his social welfare payments, and his bank or business accounts. Is the business registered?

suzieQue

This first time was Oct 2022. I know you don’t hear anything back for privacy reasons which is fine, but nothing has been done and on it goes.

suzieQue

Yes. They registered the business name in 2015 when they were both PAYE, I’ve checked that on CRO. He has made no Tax returns in those years, doesn’t have an accountant etc.

Cherry Blossom

There are two possibilities, firstly it could be on the departments to do list. There are long waiting lists for everything to do with social welfare.

Or secondly they may have already reviewed the situation and decided the couple are not in breach of any rules. You are permitted to work on disability allowance (including self-employment) and the means test for this payment is quite generous. You are also permitted to work a limited number of hours on carers allowance. It’s possible they are correctly declaring all their circumstances.

The third option is that he is not being truthful with you about his affairs to you. If they have staff to pay that will eat into their profits ‘massive amount of money’ is not a figure that anyone here can calculate their entitlements on. €200 is a massive amount of money to those that don’t have it. You seem to be causing yourself unnecessary stress over this. You have reported it, you’ve done your duty, get on with the rest of your life and let the relevant investigators do their job.

I know it's none of my business really but they could just have legitimate claims. I'm not well versed in benefit protocols but I'm sure that being on disability allowance doesn't prevent them from obtaining work.

Income from work
Some of your income from work is not taken into account. This includes self-employed work.

You can work and earn up to €165 a week (after paying PRSI, pension contributions and union dues) without your DA payment being affected.

If you earn more than €165 a week, 50% of your earnings between €165 and €375 will not be taken into account in the DA means test. Any earnings over €375 are assessed in full.

Carers allowance is also means tested.

How your means are assessed
To get your total weekly means, the DSP adds your sources of assessable income (such as cash and capital) together.

If you are single, €450 of your total weekly income is not taken into account in the means test for Carer’s Allowance.
If you are married, in a civil partnership, or cohabiting, the first €900 of your combined total weekly income is not taken into account.

I understand your frustration and perhaps they are fiddling the books with respect to earnings but unless you're their accountant or personal book-keeper there's no way of knowing all the circumstances of their situation.

The DSP don't take fraud or claims of fraud very lightly.

mulbot

Well seems there's not much more you can do, let Revenue and Social welfare do their thing and forget about it.

suzieQue

Appreciate the input all, thanks. I know you can work a certain amount on disability allowance and carers etc, but publicly posting your employees working for your business surely would be something that DSP would be looking into. I’ve included their advertisements in the reports.

It’s possible that there’s a long waiting list to be fair, as regards amount of money, we are talking €3k to 5k a month.

I think all I can do is regularly make the reports and hope something is done.

elperello

To answer your question there is nothing more you can do unless you are inclined to keep sending reports.

DSP and Revenue will not be reporting back to you.

Cherry Blossom

3k per month would be well inside the limits for those benefits if the majority of money is earned by the carer. Why would they not be permitted to publicly advertise their business? That’s how business works. On the face of it, it looks like they aren’t doing anything to contravene social welfare rules to be frank.

Do you find the nature of their business immoral or is there some other reason this is bothering you so much? Are they puppy farmers or fortune tellers or in some line of business that doesn’t align with your own beliefs?

suzieQue

So up to 10k into the household a month? Wow I wouldn’t have thought that would be within the threshold.

I’m aware they can publicly advertise there own business, are they allowed to have employees?

Cherry Blossom

I don’t believe there is any rule that says they aren’t allowed to have employees, in your last post it was 3k to 5k per month now it’s 10k, which is it?

mulbot

3 to 5 thousand euro, theres a huge variable there? Is this the social welfare money?

suzieQue

I said 3k to 5k, that’s what they’re each taking in, so up to 10k. So that would be within threshold?

suzieQue

That’s nothing to do with social welfare income, it would depend on bookings and time of year hence the variable amount

Ezeoul

Or secondly they may have already reviewed the situation and decided the couple are not in breach of any rules. You are permitted to work on disability allowance (including self-employment) and the means test for this payment is quite generous. You are also permitted to work a limited number of hours on carers allowance. It’s possible they are correctly declaring all their circumstances.

This ^^^

mulbot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122525732#Comment_122525732

So how would you know what bookings etc, they have

Cherry Blossom

Their income from self employment would be averaged out on a weekly basis over the course of the year, that’s how it’s calculated. I think I’m done advising on this thread, it seems you want to be told something specific and you aren’t hearing it. I don’t think I can help you any further. Look up the rules for means testing these allowances and do the sums yourself.

suzieQue

As I have said I have seen the bank accounts. It seems you really want to interrogate me as to what I know and how I know it.

mulbot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122525802#Comment_122525802

you said you saw social welfare letters., then you say huge money being made, but then say it's 3 to 5 k a month. That's not huge money, there's a huge variable of 2 thousand, and like others have pointed out, the numbers including for social welfare payments, are likely we within the limits.

suzieQue

I would consider 6-10k in profits a month quite significant yes. That is not including their social welfare income.

I’m very surprised that’s within a threshold for income while claiming any SW.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122525830#Comment_122525830

mulbot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122525867#Comment_122525867

Is this a joint business and seasonal?

suzieQue

Yes to both. Ok say they are within the threshold, even if it means they are good at cooking the books, DSP have looked at it and worked out that everything is fine. How are Revenue not looking for tax returns for the past 9 years?

I’ve reported this to them too. The business name was registered in 2015 and nothing submitted since?

that’s the last one I promise!

mulbot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122525924#Comment_122525924

Sole traders or limited company?

Cherry Blossom

You are only required to publicly publish your accounts if you are a ltd company, and if they are a ltd company they are not self employed they will be paying themselves wages from the company.

suzieQue

I honestly think they only registered the business name, not actually registered as sole trader or company.

Surely your required to submit returns when you register a business name? And surely that’s more reason why Revenue would investigate after it being reported?

Cherry Blossom

If it doesn’t say Ltd. after the name it isn’t a limited company. They are obliged to submit a form 11 to revenue annually and pay income tax (unless their tax credits cover the whole tax liability, then they just submit the form 11). This process is entirely between them and revenue, it isn’t anyone else’s business.

mulbot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122525992#Comment_122525992

This can't be done - you either register as a sole trader or limited company. So how can you see they've made no tax returns if you don't know if they're (a) sole traders or (b) have a registered business as a limited company?

suzieQue

It’s definitely not a ltd company. I don’t think they are even registered as sole trader.

So they can register business name but not be registered for tax? If they haven’t submitted anything in 9 years that must be the case.

Not a sole trader, not a company they just registered the name. Anyway that’s probably all I can do for now

suzieQue

I think it’s a case of they sent off the rbn1 years ago and done nothing else

Cherry Blossom

How are you seeing that they haven’t sent in form 11s every year? That information isn’t made public.

Wompa1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122526017#Comment_122526017

You can register the company name and then handle taxes as a sole trader. From what I recall, businesses registered as a sole trader show Next Annual Return as —- because they do not file the same corporate tax return in September/October as other registered companies. They still have to file and pay taxes owed but its just processed differently and doesn't seem to show on CORE.

mulbot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122526017#Comment_122526017

They have to register as one of those. If they are a sole trader, you can't possibly know what they've filed. If they are a limited company, they have to file. Seems like you don't know which it is, you mention a company name, but that company name might be what they trade under, as in "purple flowers limited" trading as " beauty scents" or whatever. If you don't know the registered business name you won't find the returns. Anyway, the in's and outs are for them and the relevant bodies.

endofrainbow

Department of Social Protection do carry out checks on suspected fraud. Anyone on a means tested payment can be reviewed at any time. There have been many crackdowns particularly on Disability and Carer's payments recently.

DSP will never inform you of their outcome but it's entirely possible they are under investigation.

Geuze

My in-laws are on JSA and DA, plus they operate a nixer.

The nixer is not hidden, if you drive past the house, on a minor country road, there is a small sign advertising what they sell, and you can look over the hedge and see the activity.

FIL claims JSA, never looks for work, is busy at the nixer during some months.

MIL claims DA, but is not disabled.

They have received 100,000 in third level fees and grants for their children.

The nixer takes in 40k gross, I think, but there are costs out of that.

They recently paid 46,200 cash for an SUV car.

They have said to me "you'd be mad to work"

They can't be unique.

I'd say this is widespread, and common.

So I am not surprised at the OP's story.

Former students of mine worked for the DSP in Longford processing DA claims, and they told me that the main pressure from TDs is to get people onto DA.

csirl

It may well be that the OP has discovered how generous our welfare system is for some types of claimants.

If the people being spoken about are openly showing how much they can earn by working the sweet spot between eligibility and earnings, it may be because they're happy to tell people how they have been able to maximise their household income by legally working the system.

The problem may be a SW policy one rather than the people doing anything illegal.

luke1313

I suggest you find a hobby, a husband or a boyfriend? You certainly have too much time on your hands. Perhaps you can help me with your investigative expertise.😂

I saw Micheál Martin leave the government buildings 5 months ago, with four security guards. This is a travesty!! Who is paying for this!! Why four, why not three? It's a scandal!!

Another time, I have the evidence!!! I saw him walking again with security! Last year in June, he was having an ice cream cone! I looked carefully I think it was a vanilla, looked like 3 scoops. Who is paying for this!! I reported him to Revenue 1 scoop should be enough! Three scoops could melt quickly, it's a waste of tax payers money. I'm so 😠

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365322/reporting-social-welfare-fraud

Reporting is Anonymous & you will never know if DSP acted on the report. But it's important to state those on Disability Allowance are in fact entitled to work.

People assume claimants of DA or Carer's allowance don't have their payments reviewed, they do.

witchgirl26

OP you will never know the outcome of the investigation unless the people involved tell you. So you can either keep reporting which sounds a bit like a vendetta or accept that you've reported, it's either been looked at & deemed ok or it is under investigation.

As for the registering a company name - my mam had her own private business for years. She registered the name so as to stop another business with a similar offering using the name she was. It was advised to her to do this. After that, as she was a sole trader & not a ltd company, she did not have to file publically available returns anywhere. Not on the CRO and not with revenue. Key word there - publically. Because she wasn't a private limited company (ltd) or a public limited company (plc). So all returns to revenue etc were handled privately between her, her accountant & them. She didn't have to have an accountant, she just decided to.

Also if they're allowed to operate a business under the rules of claiming DA, then why on earth wouldn't they be allowed to employ people if needed? In fact, if their disability means that they couldn't do as much as they might need to in busy times, it would almost be essential to keep the business going.

thebourke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122527521#Comment_122527521

is JSA the one that you are on for life?

Cherry Blossom

To my knowledge the only state benefit that you are guaranteed to stay on for life is the contributory pension once you are old enough to receive it.

thebourke

i was out of work a few years ago.i went onto JSB.Max you can be on that is 9 months, then you get means tested.i always though JSA was the lifers one…lol

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122535015#Comment_122535015

Yes, also known as the dole.

Paid at the same rate as JSB.

Actually, the long-term unemployed on JSA get more than JSB, as they get the Xmas bonus. Great country.

JSA does not exist in the USA.

In Germany, JSB is 57-60% of former wages, while JSA "Hartz IV" is 449 per month in 2022.

We are one of the few/only countries to give the long-term unemployed more payments than the short-term unemployed.

Thankfully, this is due to change.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122536128#Comment_122536128

…great, widescale psychological assessments for those on long term welfare, its about time we truly provided such assessments, and provided the critical services for these citizens, theres not much fun dealing with undiagnosed developmental disorders, learning disabilities, personality disorders, behavioral problems etc etc, this is great news, and about bloody time!

thebourke

WE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122536128#Comment_122536128

We are crying out for staff in many sectors in ireland….i don't understand how some people are left on the dole for life and never contribute anything to society.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122536169#Comment_122536169

…the causes of…..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122536143#Comment_122536143