3500kg => 4250kg on B license new legislation

unkel

I read that this was being contemplated at EU level. Any news on this?

This would be welcome news particularly in the move towards electrification

I'm interested in owning a campervan (probably a pipe dream), preferably an electric one. But I would want a fairly big one and I am not really prepared to go get a C1 driving license

Read it here:

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/driving-a-camping-car-up-to-4-500kg-on-a-b-licence.263339/

Mefistofelino

The directive has been drafted and is currently between the parliament, council and commission, but even if it is passed, it could be some time (years, probably) before it is enacted in national legislation. The only thing that might accelerate it is that the derogation also applies to ambulances.

I would suspect that your use case of a "fairly big" camper and "electric" may be a tough ask. Many of the large ones nominally rated below 3.5 tonnes are close on that limit before adding fripperies like passengers and "stuff" and on the various motorhome forums, you'll see a lot of the A-class owners having uprated to 3.8 - 4.2 tonnes just to stay legal with their touring payload. It doesn't give huge scope for battery packs. Also the sub-floor space used for battery packs in EVs tends to be filled with water & waste tanks or additional storage.

I think you'll probably see that it will be camper versions of current EV vans like the Transit or Ducato that will appear first and I'm guessing that they will be running north of 3.5 tonnes empty if they are to have any useful range. I wouldn't hold my breath for an electric A-class with useful payload under 4.25 tonnes.

ted1

isn’t there already an exception for Ekectruc vehicles ?

https://www.ndls.ie/about/licence-categories-and-codes.html#licence-categories

Alternatively fuelled vehicles with a MAM

1

exceeding 3,500 kg. but not exceeding 4,250 kg. for the transport of goods operating without a trailer by holders of a category B driving licence which was issued at least two years before, provided that the mass in excess of 3,500 kg. is due exclusively to the excess of mass of the propulsion system in relation to the propulsion system of a vehicle of the same dimensions, which is equipped with a conventional internal combustion engine with positive ignition or compression ignition, and provided that the cargo capacity is not increased in relation to the same vehicle

Nigzcurran

So this would cover the likes of a courier using an electric van? Very good

L1011

The "due exclusively" in the existing 4250 exception would only allow for where the combustion version of the same is that much lighter; a more general increase to 4250 would be needed to make it much use for bigger campers.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122530380#Comment_122530380

I read somewhere yesterday that this applies to the large Amazon Mercedes electric vans (plenty of them in Dublin). I believe it is for commercial use only and does not apply to campers though?

unkel

@Mefistofelino

Good points. In my vision I am thinking of a large (camper) van that will be or already has been converted from ICE to BEV. I would plan to use the high voltage battery (a short range one will do me) with a powerful (bi-directional*) DC-DC converter to run the camper van systems, so there would be no additional need for leisure batteries, even the original 12V lead acid batteries could go. Saving a good bit of weight. Resulting in an EV campervan that would prior to conversion to electric be over the 3500kg limit (needing C1 license and being relatively cheaper to buy), but after conversion being under 4250kg and with new legislation just needing B license

*bi-directional DC-DC converter would also be able to charge the high voltage battery from a maximum size solar panel array on the roof of the van. Ideally the entire system would run 48V, rather than a more typical high voltage setup for the traction battery and 12V for subsystems. But this would have additional challenges like probably too low a power (or rather too high a current needed) for the camper to reach 80km/h

Mefistofelino

Winnebago currently have a electric camper on trial, based on the e-Transit. It has a range of about 170km and the weight is supposedly over 4 tonnes to begin with so it looks very likely that the forthcoming license change won't be enough to allow it be driven on a B.

They have designed that the motive and habitation battery systems are separate, possibly because they don't want to be drawing on the motive battery due to Ford warranty issues and also the range is poor enough.

Red Silurian

The Opel Vivaro E could in theory be converted to an electric campervan and, provided modifications don't bring it above the 4250kg limit, be driven on a B licence

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122530964#Comment_122530964

Vivaro E is a small van, weight just over 2 tonnes

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122530993#Comment_122530993

It's tall though, make for a perfect camper

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122531332#Comment_122531332

I was thinking more something like this size 😁

Mefistofelino

The original Vivaro was a reasonably tall van - the current Vivaro-e is essentially an electric MPV

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122530380#Comment_122530380

As already noted, that is to permit an electric version of an ICE vehicle that already meets the 3500kg limitation.

The proposed directive changes are not specifically linked to the propulsion system but are limited to the type of vehicle permitted

a) campervans - probably addressing a double issue - the enabling of EV campers and also to acknowledge that in some jurisdictions that it has been possible to drive campers over 3500 kg provided you had your licence since 1999 (?)

b) ambulances - in some countries, ambulances over 3500kg are already permitted on a B licence but there are issues with cross-border ambulance transfers between countries that do and do not.

It looks like the changes are not expected to be universally applied until as late as 2028

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122531389#Comment_122531389

Yes, that would also make for a perfect camper in fairness to you

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122531455#Comment_122531455

Well the OP was talking with respect to campers.

By goods vehicles are they not differentiating from passenger vehicles. I would say a camper is considered a goods vehicle. Unless there’s a specific licence class

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122532382#Comment_122532382

"for the transport of goods" almost certainly means commercial use (i.e. Amazon vans delivering goods), not campers. Unless I am wrong there of course.

CelticRambler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122530633#Comment_122530633

You'll need to consider very carefully how you plan to use such a vehicle. In the last couple of years, I've replaced most of my gas-powered utilities with on-board solar-to-230V electric, but there is no way I could continue to use the vehicle effectively in the way that I do if the drive-train was electric-powered. It's a very simple infrastructure problem: there is no electricity in the places I stop and stay. None.

Those places are, for example, festival camp sites (i.e. a field), car parks up a mountain or at the back end of a valley somewhere, a lay-by en route to somewhere else, etc, etc. The primarly advantage of having a (self-contained) campervan is to not be tied to conventional tourist infrastructure.

If you were to drain your "vehicle" battery during your stationary period thanks to excessive consumption during your stay, you could end up staying there quite a bit longer than first planned. At the very least, you risk starting the next leg of your journey with an immediate stop at the closest charging point.

Of course, that all depends on how much you travel at a time - you may not match my continental habit of doing 400-600km in day (or night) because anything less will mean not getting to my destination in less than a week!

unkel

I am experienced in EVs, have had them for nearly 8 years now. Range anxiety doesn't really play for me. Obviously you wouldn't get a BEV campervan to do a 10k km continental European trip in record breaking time 😁

Victor

There are lots of people who have difficulty driving vehicles that are still under 2 tonnes. Will they now be allowed drive vehicles over 4 tonnes on the same driving licence?

Many residential areas and some bridges have weight limits of 3-3.5 tonnes. Most car parking spaces are for vehicles under 5 metres in length.

CelticRambler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122532971#Comment_122532971

Yeah, but are you using the vehicle's battery to power kettles, microwaves, fridges, computers, water pumps, lights, heaters, drain valves, steps, stays, fans, …

I can burn through a lot of kW standing still, depending on where I am and what I'm doing with the "caravan" part of my vehicle (which is why the roof is covered in solar panels). Having previously drained several sets of leisure batteries that were supposedly spec'd for my use (by third parties who supposedly knew their stuff …) I would be very reluctant to tie my "caravan" system to the drive-train's power source.

CelticRambler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365548/3500kg-4250kg-on-b-license-new-legislation

Just on the licence side of things: 'twas one of the best decisions I ever made - not just to get a C1 but to get a full, no-holds C (same price for the course, essentially the same test). Our original intention was to get a massive big motorhome, but in the end we found an "ordinary" model that met all our needs (albeit upgraded to 4100kg). However, the C-training provided a very useful additional perspective on how to use the roads when piloting a long, high vehicle.

There are other considerations to bear in mind if you go beyond 3.5t (like additional toll charges in Switzerland, for example) but I would recommend doing the C (or C1) training and test for its own sake instead of waiting around for the EU to bring in some small concession that may or may not extend enough to cover whatever vehicle you end up with.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122533276#Comment_122533276

Building batteries and solar PV systems is my hobby 😁

celtic_oz

I used to pull a caravan (Tab 400 - 1200kg bought specifically for its light weight)

with an EV6 and use the V2L to cook etc off. Was suprised how little of the car battery was consumed by the caravan.

unkel

Yes plenty of people in campervans typically have 2 leisure batteries of 100Ah each in parallel in a 12V system. And they traditionally were lead acid batteries, so only half of the capacity is usable. This means their total usable capacity was 2 batteries * 12V * 100Ah * 50% = a bit over 1kWh usable

Your EV6 has roughly 80kWh

And in my case I would have a very large camper van with lots of PV panels on the roof too, and the plan is they could charge the traction battery. This is tricky and unusual, but doable. If I could get away with a 48V traction battery, it would be fairly simple. This would only work for an EV conversion (camper) van though with a DC motor. And driving performance would be very limited, perhaps it would be too slow to safely move in traffic and to reach a 80km/h top speed.

CelticRambler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122538166#Comment_122538166

Yeah … but: those people are also using gas, diesel and electric hook-up to meet their daily needs. By and large, the typical 12V system is limited to lighting and ventilation, with the irregular use of various pumps and motors. If you want to compare like with like, you need to look at what someone with a similarly sized house is using, which in my case (when I'm in low-energy mode) ranges from 12-20kWh per day. My 230V system is based on that kind of consumption, and the assumption that I will not be hooked up to any power point for up to six months at a time.*

This is why I said you need to start with a clear idea of how you plan to use the vehicle. If all you expect of it is to spend the odd weekend watching the sun go down on Galway bay, then sure, you'll be fine, but why then would you want a >3.5t vehicle? In fact, @celtic_oz has already done more than that with an all-electric-bar-the-drive-train system:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058356745/campervan-around-waw-using-electric-only-and-no-gas

driving performance would be very limited, perhaps it would be too slow to safely move in traffic and to reach a 80km/h top speed.

Why? I have five after-market panels fitted to the roof of my mine and can easily and safely reach 120km/h and/or climb 16% gradients. I generally don't - but that's for reasons of fuel economy. Then again, I'm doing that with a diesel engine and fully manual 5-speed gearbox - surely you're not saying that EV drive trains aren't up to the job of real driving? :-D

Butlookit, if you want an EV camper, they're already out there … kinda (the company is in administration since earlier this year) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TiUlGH2emU

*For reference: during the >six months from mid-April to the end of October, I'll have spent a grand total of approximately 40 days at home, which justifies having a BIG vehicle. However, for the same reason, there's no point including low-cost overnight charging in any equation.

unkel

Driving performance would be limited because of the 48V traction battery I am envisaging. Say you have a 48kWh battery (or 96kWh). To draw 48kW out of that (I would say around thereabouts is a minimum for safe performance) means you draw 1000A which is rather a lot. Would need very solid and expensive cables, disconnects, contactors, etc.

The reason I am thinking 48V is that you can have a relatively cheap and easy way to charge the main traction battery from the solar panels

And to put things into perspective, an average modern all electric full size house uses about 20-30kWh per day on average (less in summer). Without heating but including hot water and cooking, a large campervan would use no more than 10kWh per day and that would be including mod cons like microwave, kettle, large fridge / freezer, induction cooker, large TV, computers, etc.

CelticRambler

Hmmmm. It's not the house or the 'van that uses the electricity, but the people inside. Those figures are seem quite conservative to me. And don't forget to include space cooling in your summer calculations - or increase your fridge-freezer consumption to account for the appliance having to work a lot harder in the hot-box that is a campervan in the sun (aswell as a limted ability to disperse the heat removed from your food and drink).

Still struggling to understand what you mean by "large" too - the pic in post #12 is probably three-quarters the size of my vehicle, and I'm far from the largest on continental roads. I think we might have very different visions of what you have in mind.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122539802#Comment_122539802

Ah, like I said it is just a pipe dream for now. Not even at pre-planning stage. A self build will likely never happen.

I do have a good idea of battery electric systems and vehicles though, it has been my hobby for a long time. In my home (busy 5 person household with 2-3 people working from home and 2 EVs), I only ever buy electricity from the grid between 2AM and 5AM. And last year between May and September (when I got my smart meter installed), I was completely off the grid.

CelticRambler

Ah right. Sounds like you're very much coming at the problem from an EV/all-electric point of view.

Campervanning/motorhoming is an entirely different kettle of electrons … which is one reason so many second-hand vehicles have so few kms on the clock!

Still worth it, though, if you're not too attached to a bricks-and-mortar lifestyle. Even more so with a C licence.

This message comes to you from someone sitting right now at 8pm local time, in 33°C heat, within spitting distance of the Vosges, the Black Forest, the French and Swiss Jura and the Swiss Alpsenjoying my tub of ice-cream and three redundant energy systems for peace of mind. :-)

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122540052#Comment_122540052

Enjoy 😃