The hospitality poor mouth

Iguarantee

Hospitality businesses can whinge all they want; some are legitimately suffering and some are just delusional.

Cork.

Imperial Hotel (4-Star).

Saturday @ ~6pm.

1x Americano & 1x cappuccino (poorly made)

€8.30

They can absolutely go f*ck themselves if they think I’ll ever spend money there again.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122616348#Comment_122616348

I know a couple of cafes in small towns that are wedged busy all week. They are busy because the food and service is top class. People go out of their way to go to such places.

Glenomra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122616489#Comment_122616489

2 lattes in little Catherine Street limerick, Thursday morning , outside table 9.90. Extortionate pricing imo. In this instance I had no choice as I caught up with a family member, but that type of spending by me will be a rare occurrence in the future....and it has nothing to do with affordability...at that stage of life...rather the fe****g principle of it..

tayto lover

6 euro for a chicken salad sandwich in a garage yesterday ?? Losing the run of themselves.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122616489#Comment_122616489

Hey, just pay up.

Don't you know that that hotel's energy bills have gone up? Don't you know that they have to pay their staff now? Don't you know that transport costs have gone up?

Come on, don't be so stingy. After all what's 8.30 for some quality coffee?

That new 25 reg BMW that the hotel owner wants isn't going to buy itself you know.

🤣

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122566279#Comment_122566279

Will never die out in spite of certain celebrity entrepreneurs burning themselves and creditors and getting sympathy from the media

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122577379#Comment_122577379

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122576506#Comment_122576506

Businesses opening under new name is a favourite pasttime here usually and mostly to avoid liabilities

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122608852#Comment_122608852

To be kind I think the Viscount means if something/anything is priced at more than e12 he will choose another item on the menu.

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122616968#Comment_122616968

Also,not paying staff for a full shift is common,as is not getting the short break entitlement and lunch break.All helps the Audi quatro purchase

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122608030#Comment_122608030

Well rental costs must be mental too.

Thats needs to be seriously looked at.

Landlords creaming it for sitting on their holes

zell12

And coffee bean prices ↑

BBC - cost of unroasted beans traded in global markets is now at a "historically high level".. Experts blame a mix of troubled crops, market forces, depleted stockpiles - and the world’s smelliest fruit.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579045#Comment_122579045

jaysus, back in 2004 I can remember people paying $59 for a basic burger and $149 for a tarted up one.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122619030#Comment_122619030

What part of 5th Ave were you on?

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122619574#Comment_122619574

Therr are few enough restaurants on 5th itself - it was DB Bistro Moderne between 5th/6th in the low 40s. My obtuse point is that it can be possible to have expensive ingredients or techniques in what is ostensibly a cheap food product. The problem in Ireland, being back 8 years, is that there are too many outlets which are simply expensive without reason. On burgers, too many people offering a “steak” burger when such a product should be made from cheaper cuts. In order to maintain margins, restaurants need to pack more flavour and quality in with less expensive ingredients if they get caught in a price vice.

Edit: and to be clear, I never ate that burger. Foie gras is not something I like, truffles I can barely stand and I see not reason to wrap braised short rib in mince and call it a burger!

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122620179#Comment_122620179

Also home a few years now and was surprised to hear the amount of glowing recommendations I was getting for pubs with those copy and paste burger/goujon/curry menu's.

I can see where someone gets the "it's just a burger" attitude when exposed to those banal overpriced ones.

Potential-Monke

Most of us wouldn't even consider paying €50 for a burger no matter what it is or who made it. But that was always the case even in good money times. Again, for most of us.

Problem is that what used to be €5 burgers are now €15 and nothing has changed. In fact, you're probably getting less overall now anyway, but at an inflated price. That's my issue. The "cheap" food places are all €15 or more and as a result the places that do actually have good food are gone into the >€20 range. A near 100% increase in some places but for less overall and no improvement in quality.

Local burger joint, hasn't gotten better nor gotten worse. Used to have the special as a burger, plain chip and can for €10. That special is now only available during quiet times and no longer includes the drink. Otherwise its €18. As a result I don't get it that often anymore. So I'm gone from at least once every 2 weeks to rarely in that place now. And if they can sell it at €10 during quiet times......

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122617266#Comment_122617266

there are pressures the other way, if you arent buying on line these days are you even living in the 21st C , retail space ought to be under pressure or will be down the road

Hotblack Desiato

Wine has gone up about 30% everywhere. Bottles that used to be in the mid €20s are in the mid €30s now, many places have nothing under €30.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122620179#Comment_122620179

Looks like that place is no longer open. No loss either.

Back 20 years ago in NYC the only places "offering" food at those sort of ridiculous prices would have been in the stupid part of town which is why I ask what part of 5th you were on. But you wouldn't have seen me dead in places like that whether I had the money to waste or not.

Anyway, I tended to live on pizza when I was there. 😁

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122620782#Comment_122620782

It's always been a complete rip off. The place down the way from us charges 28 for a bottle that they get in for around 6. I know this because we know the waiting staff pretty well. Absolute nonsense.

We still go there, but it's once in a while now as opposed to the regularity that we used to. It's just not worth it any more.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122622014#Comment_122622014

28e for a bottle they buy in for 6e is 75% GP. A pub isn't making mad money on a 75% GP and a restaurant even less as the food will be a lower GP.

75% GP assuming the place has a steady crowd is a healthy business but it is certainly not ripping people off. Far from it really.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122622041#Comment_122622041

Yeah, I've heard all the excuses Breezy. But I'm not paying mark ups like that.

We eat the food and buy the wine afterwards down the road.

nachouser

366%, no?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122622055#Comment_122622055

I'de say the hospitality industry is better off if you stay at home.

No other industry has to deal with such a large number of blowhards who think that being a customer in an industry makes them experts on the running of it.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122622084#Comment_122622084

It has fuck all to do with being a "blowhard".

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122622077#Comment_122622077

GP ?

No it's 74.2%.

But it for 6 and sells for 28 (including VAT) is a gross profit of 17.33e

Potential-Monke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122622084#Comment_122622084

There's at least one. AGS. Everyone seems to know how the job should be done. And most haven't a clue. Should we dismiss the opinion of everyone on that subject too, unless they were a Garda?

Glenomra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122622041#Comment_122622041

That computation doesn't make since. It's close to a 400 per cent mark up which is beyond extortionate. A 75 per cent cent mark up would see a 6 euro bottle selling for 10.50 euro far removed from 28 euro.

.

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122622209#Comment_122622209

But 17.33 is 288% GP?

Edit, ok, I see you're talking about margin. I think Joe Soap thinks in terms of mark up, but fair enough.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122622275#Comment_122622275

Gross Profit is essentially the standard way the industry generates prices. Knowing what GP you need to hit is the difference between a lot of good and bad businesses. I worked for a lot of guys thought they could just copy whatever price the pub down the road had.

I would say 75% is on the high end but not knowing the circumstances of the venue I certainly wouldn't judge a place for that margin. Anywhere I have seen has been between 69 and 75 and a lot of that would depend on rent or ownership of premises. I have heard of 65 or lower but they were places like taprooms designed to showcase a product rather than make money.

nachouser

Cheers for that. I've never been involved in hospitality so I'd no clue about what's considered a viable rate of return. It's also made me realise that I just don't think about paying VAT on every day stuff.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122622705#Comment_122622705

Prices are generally displayed inclusive of VAT in Ireland, unlike the USA where sales tax is added at the point of sale.

Don't worry, most proprietors haven't a clue about VAT either, mostly the hospitality industry who seem to think it's part of their income.

Pauliedragon

I've never come across a place where the wait staff have access to the cost price of wine or any other product.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122622571#Comment_122622571

I say most places would love a 75% GP! Don’t think it’s the current climate for most at the moment though.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122621993#Comment_122621993

oh trust me, there were loads of places like that in lower Manhattan as well. I remember one which served grits with snails for about $50 a plate. None of those dishes or places would have been my norm.

notAMember

Hospitality and food in ireland is suffering because Irish customers are living on a different planet of customer expectations with costs for meat, premises and labour. Rent is not low, wages need to be paid, and there is 30-50% waste of the raw materials.

We're also an island, that's more expensive in itself, as you need to ship/fly stuff in.

For some reason there's a comparison running with the US, which is bizaar to my mind. US has abundant space, massive factory farms, labour that effectively work for free, and then beg the customer for tips , expecting 25%. Compare with something reasonable at least.

Here are some chipper costs in europe, not big cities → small towns.

Swiss ones, for giggles. 2 chicken nuggets, that'll be 10 of your finest euros.

Scrumdiddly’s largest creditor was the Revenue Commissioners, which in 2022 sought payment of €92,000 tax liabilities that had been warehoused. When this was examined, the company found its warehoused debt was closer to €300,000.

A chain that sells ice cream somehow racked up €300k of tax debt to Revenue in a relatively short period of time during Covid.

Remember this when the industry comments on how many cafes and restaurants are shutting their doors. It is nothing to do with VAT rates, it is bad financial management and huge debts owing, so the owners go bust.

Private equity firm snaps up ice cream chain Scrumdiddly’s

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/09/17/private-equity-firm-snaps-up-ice-cream-chain-scrumdiddlys/

tayto lover

Restaurants will charge what they think people will pay. If people are not willing to be fleeced then prices will come down. I've seen prices rise by as much as 50% in a few years yet wages, pensions etc have not risen anywhere near that.

almostover

Why is the VAT on hospitality such a sore point for business owners?

I don't hear tradespeople complaining about it. Had some electrical work done on my house recently and had to pay 13.5% VAT on the bill. The electrician doesn't get that 13.5%, it goes into the exchequer.

I was thinking about this today. Say that my wife and I go for a meal. The final bill comes to €113.50, we've paid €100 for the food and service, and €13.50 in VAT on top of that. The VAT is passed onto the exchequer. The restaraunt gets €100, from which they must pay for the ingredients, staff, heat & light, rent etc. with the leftover being their profit.

Now if the VAT rate is reduced to 9% as the hospitality industry is lobbying for, then our bill should total €109. €9 for the exchequer and €100 for the restaraunt. There is no increase in the profit for the restaraunt unless they don't pass the reduction in VAT onto the customer. I'm guessing that's what the industry wants, goverment subvention by means of a VAT decrease. Charge €113.50 regardless, pay the Revenue €9 and then pocket €104.50 instead. Essentially increase their margin by 4.5% at the expense of their customers and the exchequer.

That's extortion in a nutshell. If a business cannot be viable irrespective of the VAT rate then it can't be looking to the government to bail it out.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122627607#Comment_122627607

They have zero intention of passing any possible cut on; basically.

The first time it was cut, during the "jobs budget" in ~2012 or so, lots of places did pass it on; but not the COVID era cut.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122622270#Comment_122622270

You are confusing mark-up and margin.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122622571#Comment_122622571

Here is a restaurant in London honestly stating that they make 80% GP gross profit margin on cod's heads.

Their overall GP is 72%

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/g9folmE0QgA

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122627702#Comment_122627702

Well ya because the point of the COVID tax cuts was to keep places viable during a time of massive capacity reductions.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122627607#Comment_122627607

That's it in a nutshell. The industry wants more money courtesy of the taxpayer/exchequer.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122628290#Comment_122628290

Didn't stop most places putting the increase on after, though.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122628551#Comment_122628551

During a time when it has been well reported that costs were skyrocketing across society.

Sure there are gougers out there but for the majority those increases were necessary due to cost of product going up. You can't maintain GP at the same selling price if cost price keeps going up.

But it's just so much easier for "I'm a Guinness man" and "I'm a Heineken man" to be angry at the bar person than angry at the brand they are a slave to.

Wanderer78

growing market uncertainty must be playing a part in all of this, most sme's are severely exposed here, with ever tightening margins, and with the velocity of the money supply slowing, this must be creating a feedback loop, in turn causing sme's to effectively ramp up prices to simply try survive, and to also try play the tax game….

veryangryman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122628642#Comment_122628642

Well yes it is. I cant talk to the Heineken man to complain.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122628780#Comment_122628780

You could buy a very similar practically identical but cheaper product.

Lots of big man talk in pubs about switching from that cohort but they never do.

ebbsy

Had a restaurant for 9 years in the 2000s.

Its no surprise to me what is going on these days.

Rent reviews every 5 years.

Revenue calling in the Covid debt warehousing.

People drinking less…that is where the margins are made.

Raw material costs going through the roof.

Why would you do it.