French man accused of drugging his wife and inviting men to rape her

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593288#Comment_122593288

away with you and your bs.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593302#Comment_122593302

I understand the issue people have with gender bashing, that's not what I am doing. I'm pointing out, in the simplest terms for people who don't understand, that rape is not of the order of taking drugs.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593308#Comment_122593308

Too close to the truth. You think you are "winning" something by responding and repeating, but all you are doing is highlighting it.

Most normal people can understand that the analogy was merely a device to highlight that you cannot extrapolate from a self-selecting subset of people who seek out a specific illegal thing, to the general population. In the same way that one cannot extrapolate from perverts who seek out pervert chatrooms to the general population, one also cannot extrapolate from an addict seeking out a fix to the general population.

If what you genuinely "understood" from the analogy was that raping someone is no worse then smoking a spliff, then there isn't much I can say to help you more.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593328#Comment_122593328

You're not funny Donald.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593313#Comment_122593313

if you and the op and their types changed the message you might get less push back.

1)How about violence is evil

2)Rape is evil

3)Anyone who participates in either is evil.

That’s it.

Or see post 2. That sums it up. The rest is really damaging angyy speak that cares for no one but their versions of what a women is. (Suggest you read thread bans for transgender issues

But no the toxic thread title and the way the angry army is on here is why most people… say got away and **** off with your toxic shite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593381#Comment_122593381

Oh I see. You want to make this a gender bashing thread. ok.

extra-ordinary_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591535#Comment_122591535

One of the ways to prevent men from committing rape is through changing legislation and increasing penalties and applying appropriate sentencing for men who commit rape, as there is evidence that reduces the number of men who believe they are able to commit rape and not be punished or prosecuted or convicted for it. These measures serve as a deterrent, not a complete solution by any means.

What's your suggestion?

These are the current sentencing guidelines

" A rape which is carried out without violence or threats being used, attracts a sentence of 7 years before mitigating factors are taken into consideration.

A rape which is carried out by using a greater amount of violence or intimidation than is normally associated with a rape offence; or involves a greater level of degradation of the victim; or involves an abuse of trust, attracts a sentence of 10 to 15 years before mitigating factors are taken into consideration.

A term of imprisonment of life can apply if a rape is carried out with serious violence; or if the victim is subjected to greater humiliation than is normally associated with a rape offence; or if the victim is subjected to sexual perversion.

Aggravating features in a rape case include: • abuse of trust by the person who committed the rape; • abuse of a position of authority or a position of dominance in a family; • planning the offence; • the involvement of more than one offender; • tricking a victim into a position of vulnerability; • taking advantage of a difference in age. People (DPP) v. Tiernan [1988] I.R. 250 and People (DPP) v. FE [2019] IESC 85 set out the sentencing guidelines for a rape offence."

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593332#Comment_122593332

they weren’t trying to be. Are you actually critically thinking about what they said there or just shutting down

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593476#Comment_122593476

Yes, I read what they said, no I don't agree with the false equivalences and strawman arguments. This is a poster deliberately setting up an argument for a case of male bashing in a thread about rape due to the original title. I didn't start the thread and not once have I made a case to suggest that all men are rapists. In fact you would see from my initial post quite the opposite. I won't continue to entertain someone attempting to project otherwise or portray that by post baiting.

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583247#Comment_122583247

there is laughing in my head if you want to generalize about french men you have to generalize about all men….or do neither.

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583400#Comment_122583400

This is not true. In fact one man stated after being accused by the police ' She is his wife he may do as he wishes with her'.

They were also instructed on how not to leave forensic evidence. They were also instructed on how not to wake her or leave any trace of a scent like perfume aftershave or tobacco.

And the police are not following the line of these men thought she was consenting. What silly idea?? To get consent you need to speak at least with the person you mean to carry out the act with. There is NO such thing as third party consent. They absolutely did not believe she had consented. And the fact some are suggesting this (not yourself i dont think you are ) truly shows what an uphill battle prosecuting rape is.

They might have thought she had consented? Really?? Really??

Did they ask to speak to her before hand? after?? Did they talk it through?

Oh please.

They knew 150 % they knew how wrong it was they knew how it could potentially kill a woman of her age. They know they knew .. everyting.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593509#Comment_122593509

then it is not true for one defendant, if the court determines to believe what he says

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593513#Comment_122593513

This just tells me you dont understand what legal consent is. No one can give it on your behalf. The idea men (not you) think you can use a woman's body because someone else said so… and that is consent.. is well daft.

They never got HER consent. The onus is on THEM to get consent from her directly they didnt . THEY KNEW all of them.

Your husband cannot pass on your consent for you. I mean he cant say to your doctor yeah she gives consent to have those breast implants or that operation.

Only SHE can give consent and its not like chinese whispers. I mean you cant sign a contract for me and say .. well but she told me she agrees. COME ON.

Do men think we women are stupid? They knew.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593522#Comment_122593522

woosh. You’ve completely misunderstood what I wrote.

one defendant made that claim, which doesn’t rebut what DT was saying in the post you were replying to, for the rest of the men being referenced and what their attitudes were. This is not saying that their excuses have any legal validity, calm down.

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122592212#Comment_122592212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122592213#Comment_122592213

I am a rather blunt object when hurled at full velocity.

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122592227#Comment_122592227

These fu*king geniuses really thought they had committed the perfect crime.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593540#Comment_122593540

Many of them I’d say so yes probably thought they got away with the perfect crime; some of the men are reportedly delusional enough into thinking that they hadn’t committed a crime.

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593302#Comment_122593302

We don't know what all men are. And we dont know what they are not.

Most users are men. Most drug dealers are men. Most criminals in fact .. are men.

Patterns of drug use, sales and trafficking are profoundly gendered. Most users, dealers and traffickers are men

The data is here.

https://www.swansea.ac.uk/media/Developing-drug-policy-gender-matters.pdf

I had assumed it was common knowledge that most drug dealers were men? No .. women don't last in that world. Women dont last as criminals at all usually with some exceptions. Its a career where you need to be intimidating and physically strong.

We dont know what all men are nor are not. We dont know what all women are or are not. Who knows what 99 % of people do in the shadows. We see only the surface.

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593543#Comment_122593543

They acted like men who thought they had committed a crime tho. I mean they attempted to cover their tracks.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593550#Comment_122593550

let’s put some numbers to it, because it’s not like women are extremely rare to use drugs or be criminals, even while it is true that men generally have the lions share, so as not to generalize or “usually” this, here is the gender stats I found on drug use

Probably noteworthy concern here, given the nature of this crime on topic, that women are basically on par with men in one category and it’s sedatives and tranquilizers 🫥

the google AI also provided this: for some categories of crime women still make a significant figure, a 3rd of property crime a quarter of DUIs, nearly half of larcenies, etc

Violent crimes: In 2019, men accounted for 78.9% of those arrested for violent crimes, and 88% of those arrested for murder and nonnegligent manslaughter. 

Property crimes: In 2019, men accounted for 62.3% of those arrested for property crimes. 

Drug abuse violations: In 2019, 74.6% of those arrested for drug abuse violations were men. 

Larceny-theft: In 2019, 42.6% of those arrested for larceny-theft were women. 

Aggravated assault: In 2019, 23.5% of those arrested for aggravated assault were women. 

Driving under the influence: In 2019, 25.9% of those arrested for driving under the influence were women

So it’s demonstrably misleading to allege that “women don’t last as criminals at all usually” or allege that you need to be eg. Intimidating and physically strong to commit crime generally which includes steal property or commit larceny/shoplifting; while it is reasonably fair to say the men make up a wide majority of drug trafficking (dealing and distribution) crime.

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593583#Comment_122593583

Shoplifting is 50 /50 almost gender wise. But i feel its an unfair crime to weigh up. You have the guy stealing bread or nappes in the with guy who steals designer purses. Many are not really criminals. But women marginally commit more shop lifting.

Women shoplift more than men—43% of women respondents reported prior shoplifting, while only 37% of men said they shoplifted before

also 40 % of adults have shoplifted. Yes its a crime. .. but its a general population one.

https://www.lawofficecameron.com/blog/2018/07/shoplifting-not-a-gender-specific-crime/

There isn’t a typical shoplifter, despite what some might think. Men and women shoplift at similar rates, and although kids are often assumed to shoplift more often, the reality is that around 75 percent of shoplifters are adults. Approximately 55 percent of adult shoplifters began doing so in their teens.

Grand larceny is just theft but something more valuable is stolen. And thus its more about who is the more profitable thief. Men commit something like 73 % of all financial fraud. (grand larceny).

https://www.statista.com/statistics/461354/distribution-of-perpetrators-of-fraud-cases-by-gender/

It is not misleading at all when men commit 73 % of all fraud (a typically non violent crime) and women are 4 times as likely to be the victim of theft as men that women do not last long in the criminal underworld. They dont .. they get murdered.

dontmindme

So, it's accepted that the majority of law-breakers are men. Being from Mars probably explains it.

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593597#Comment_122593597

Well no.

Its more complex. Men are .. bread earners .. providers. Some people .. are poor.

There is huge pressure on men to earn money .. more than women . .. and to be seen to have .. big money.. a lot of men are willing to risk their freedom for that. Society teaches them .. its the manly thing to have money or make it or provide at all costs.

They have to provide for kids and wife. A lot of men are taught from a young age that they are nothing without money. Society tells them they are not real men or worth anything without money. Min wage jobs dont pay for the nappies or the stability etc. And for young men in low income backrounds… they want to give their families what normal people do. Its part of their self esteem .. even without family .. society puts diff pressure on men to have money than it does for women.

Its REALLY because men are from venus.

Violent crime .. part of that is mental health. SA .. some are victims repeating it out .. some are psychos .. and hate women.

But think about it. Why do men love the godfather?? Or andrew tate?? Or elon musk?? what do they all have? money and power. Young men are sent all the wrong messages and values .. they are told they are failures if they cant afford a house or rent…

None of this has to do with the topic really tho.. as this sort of crime is not excusable.

The man also appears to have taken naked pictures of his daughter.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593598#Comment_122593598

well actually, it might just be on the topic: almost all of the men if not all of the men in this criminal case were middle class and working class, they had money, status and families.

“The accused men represent a kaleidoscope of working-class and middle-class French society: truck drivers, soldiers, carpenters and trade workers, a prison guard, a nurse, an I.T. expert working for a bank, a local journalist. They range in age from 26 to 74. Many have children and are in relationships.”

A noteworthy thing in this case the victim was reportedly the family’s head breadwinner, he was the one taking their daughter school etc. it sounds like he was not, at least, the main breadwinner, even while it does state he was a trained electrician and entrepreneur and avid cyclist, she was the “stable” one, maybe this is an important point:

“Her father, she wrote, was the one who drove her to school, picked her up late from parties, encouraged her and consoled her. Her mother was the stable breadwinner, working as a manager in a Paris-area company for 20 years.”

That may have more to do with the topic than you think!

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591827#Comment_122591827

I can’t, because it’s never been done or implemented before in any country.

Now that answers your question directly, you were looking for an example of a country where the measures I suggested by way of preventing men from committing rape could be implemented, and you replied that it can’t be done. The measures can be done, and measures which have been introduced, such as making spousal rape a criminal offence (Ireland in 1990, UK in 2003), have reduced the numbers of men who commit rape.

Whereas it was once the case that wives if they went to a police station to make a complaint of rape against their husband, instead of taking the complaint seriously, the husband would be contacted and berated for the locks on the doors not working as his wife is out of the house again, and the husband being reminded that his wife had better have the jerseys washed and dried for the hurling match that coming Sunday. That’s the kind of bastards women were dealing with at the time. Nowadays wives at least have the capacity to refuse to have sex with their husband (provided they’re conscious), whereas before spousal rape became law, there wasn’t even the idea that they could refuse to have sex with their husband.

There are countries where at one time or another they have considered the possibility of chemical castration for sex offenders, but there’s the obvious problem that they’re already sex offenders by that point, and these programs have been voluntary, which pretty much guarantees that very few sex offenders will volunteer, and the evidence just isn’t there to support the efficacy of chemical castration in preventing men from committing rape. In short, it just doesn’t work, and that’s all before one gets into any ethical considerations.

Another possible suggestion is that men simply be told when they feel a compulsion to have sex and they are unable to find a consensual and willing participant(s) - go find a quiet spot for themselves and proceed to tug the skeleton out of themselves to their hearts content. The main benefit is of course they aren’t going to trouble anyone else, and there are numerous secondary benefits:

https://primemensmedical.com/blog/does-masturbating-make-you-tired/

It works for 93% of men (the other 7% of men commit rape), for the posters here who love back of a napkin statistics, or tissue, even. I’ve no doubt they keep a plentiful supply close to hand. Men, that is, I’m not referring to any of the posters here, obviously 😒

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591859#Comment_122591859

Your buddy…

Once they reach secondary school, most children will have matured to the level where they abandon simplistic thinking like that, that because people agree on an issue it means they agree on everything, even to the extent that they are now fwends, or buddies, or whatever else. Overgrown children however, who wish to be perceived as adults, betray themselves by holding fast to the idea that if two people agree on something, they must agree on everything. I’m not sure you’re aware, but that’s very rarely the case in the adult world, let alone the idea that a friendship would form from such a flimsy foundation. There will be times when we agree, there will be times when we don’t. That won’t mean I’m your buddy, pal or friend then either, any more than it means volchista and I are buddies, pals or friends.

I’ll park that there lest there’s a risk of turning this discussion into a cartographer’s convention again, distracting from it’s sole purpose, which is not about geography, or drugs, or battle of the sexes or any of the rest of that nonsense. It is simply to identify means by which we can prevent men from committing rape. If you have any suggestions yourself as to how to prevent men from committing rape, that’d be helpful. And don’t just say you can’t or I can’t. I know we could come up with some suggestions if we both wanted to? It won’t mean we’re buddies, if that’s a more important underlying concern for you.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593445#Comment_122593445

What's your suggestion?

You already quoted my suggestions?

• Changing legislation - an ongoing process, as I pointed out earlier in the thread with the example of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences and Human Trafficking) Act 2024 -

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2024/act/28/enacted/en/print

- Increasing penalties and applying appropriate sentencing for men who commit rape - well there’s not much use in increasing penalties on their own (the maximum sentence for rape is life), when the conviction rate for rape is as low as it is, let alone consideration as to what constitutes appropriate sentencing.

But to give us something of a starting place - Nora Wall was the first woman in the history of the Irish State who was found guilty of committing rape and convicted, and also the first time a life sentence was handed down for rape:

Wall was the first woman in the history of the Irish State to be convicted of rape, the first person to receive a life sentence for rape and the only person in the history of the state to be convicted on repressed memory evidence.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nora_Wall

Seems as good a starting place as any, I would think, if the same standards were applied to men who commit rape? Unfortunately there still does appear to be a vast difference in conviction rates for rape that can’t be explained away by victims unwillingness to make a complaint or even for the DPP to proceed with a complaint on the basis of the probability of a successful prosecution. Somethings not right there, and it’s not simply a question of the length of time it takes for a case to go from complaint to conviction is about the same length of time as the average sentence for a conviction for rape in Ireland. And that’s only of the cases where a complaint is made, not cases where the victim isn’t even aware they have been raped.

CPTM

Its crazy how little this is being reported in Ireland. Had it not been for boards.ie I basically wouldn't have known about it. Really weird.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593509#Comment_122593509

Why do you respond to my post with

This is not true

and then go off on a rant that doesn't actually address what is in the post?

Which point do you think "is not true"?

1. It is highly likely that the men who received the "invitation" were selected based on their chatting history or professed willingness to perform the act.
2. According to the article, some were under the impression that the woman consented to be drugged as some kind of kink or fantasy. They may have genuinely believed that.
3. Regardless, the fact that they were willing conspirators may have reduced their desire to report themselves.

That is the entire post.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591679#Comment_122591679

Ironic that in a post asking me why I'm deflecting (I'm not) you ignore the majority of my post and hone in on a one line sarcastic rhetorical question. The answer to which was clearly 'no' and just in case you mised it, was in the immediately following paragraph. Yet you ignore whole point being made and reply about something (French v non-French) which I clearly said was irrelevant rather than address the point actually being made.

In your own words "You should probably ask yourself why you need to deflect from the facts like that, but I don't expect you will."

The original loaded thread title set the tone for the thread.

Men don't rape, rapists rape. One may as well ask why do mammals chase cats?

To the original thread title question the vast vast majority of men could give the honest (but blunt) answer - I've never raped anyone, I don't associate with anyone I know has and anyone I associate with hasn't raped anyone to my knowledge, so - sorry I can't give you any relevant insight.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593919#Comment_122593919

 “ I've never raped anyone, I don't associate with anyone I know has and anyone I associate with hasn't raped anyone to my knowledge, so - sorry I can't give you any relevant insight.”

but that would not be good enough for the OP’s agenda. That’s why this thread is raging on. The OP and their growing band of angry buddies rage against all things non woman.

---------------------------------------

Warned: attack the post, not the poster.

1 point + 1 day ban.

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594046#Comment_122594046

Or maybe because a large group of people are more upset that someone made a hot headed comment on the internet and won't let it go than they are that a man systematically drugged his wife over a ten year period and invited other men to rape her while unconscious and he seems to have found many willing participants.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593302#Comment_122593302

No the OP has not said that, so that's a FAIL right there.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593728#Comment_122593728

You and I haven't agreed on much to date, but that post and your opening post on this thread are spot on.

It's a real shame some people have to diss a poster because they disagree with something they said once, rather than trying to at least understand where they are coming from. I don't agree with Volchitsa on everything either, but I haven't been in a thread that isn't the better for her contributions.

I actually thought the OP was a bit anti-man in first reading, but on reflection, for any woman in a long term relationship who might be thinking " there but for the grace of God..." and being so angry at a society where this sort of thing goes on for so long and is only detected by chance, how would such a woman be able to post in a completely neutral tone?

And the responses have varied from nit- picking over geography and percentages, to "what about the junkies?", with few actually attempting to answer the question of how this can be prevented.

I'm thinking of the Spiritan thread and hoping that if we can gradually erase the normalisation of abuse against weaker people, and thinking of others as objects to be used for relief of whatever frustrations someone might be experiencing, then that might be a start.

Raichų

It is not at all surprising to see the prevailing sentiment that this is “all our fault” but it’s a wholly unhelpful one indeed.

I really do struggle to understand how this could be considered my fault or my brother or uncle’s fault just because we are men. I also don’t understand why it’s my responsibility to “fix” the problem. It’s as unhelpful as the previous notion that women need to help themselves by not dressing “suggestively” or however else they were blamed for being raped previously.

This isn’t anyones fault but the perpetrators. You can’t read a story like this then open a thread asking men what they intend to do about it. I didn’t do anything in the first place.

How do I personally help protect women from rape? I don’t do it. I don’t rape people. End of story. Can I prevent others from doing so? Well, about as much as I can stop a thief stealing or a killer murdering. It’s actually just not my responsibility to prevent crime, it’s the Gardai’s.

So I would suggest you direct the question “what’s being done to protect women from violent criminals?” to the relevant authorities, eg: An Garda Síochána.

Perhaps having a specialised police force tasked with the detection, prevention and investigation of sexual assault and related crimes may help. Maybe there’s one already. But either way a good and highly trained Garda or Detective Garda is going to be a lot more effective in preventing these crimes than 10 average men.

I wouldn’t even know where to begin in identifying a potential predator. I think educating young people (young boys/men) on the fact rape is bad is also (in my opinion) just being seen to be doing something. Do you seriously think these sick bastards don’t know what they’re doing is wrong?

Cmon they’re on a private chat group specifically to discuss this sick behaviour. You could argue there’s nothing “wrong” with rape fantasy and I suppose if everyone’s on board, there isn’t. Although I think it’s safe to say the majority of men I know and I think quite generally— would be absolutely aghast by this story and indeed a suggestion they were culpable just by being men.

I think that is the part of this whole thread frankly where the OP seems to struggle, we’re not offended on behalf of rapists, they can literally die in a fire for all I care, what is offensive is that you are looking at these monsters and saying “well, what are you going to do about this then?????”

I am going to do what I do everyday. I am going to not rape anyone and if I’m asked about it (which granted is scarce) I will of course condemn any act of rape or sexual assault on anyone.

I would also like to finish off by asking anyone who’s been the victim of or suspects an incident of sexual assault towards another please contact the gardai and don’t let the perpetrator get away with it as that further emboldens them.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594330#Comment_122594330

Little bit of victim blaming at the end was a nice touch.

Personally I would not advise any woman who has been raped to go to the police. I probably wouldn't advise her not to either, but I certainly would NOT do a guilt trip of the "don’t let the perpetrator get away with it as that further emboldens them" style that you suggest. One to two percent of reported rapes results in a conviction. Unless you think 98% of reported rapes are false allegations that means that the vast majority of women who have been raped go through hell - for nothing. So no, the problem is NOT that women don't report rape. The problem is elsewhere.

I'd suggest that the repeated blatant lies such as we're seeing on here about anyone having said "all men are rapists" is more likely to be part of the problem than women not reporting their rapes. The start of your post being a fairly typical example, albeit not the worst.

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594330#Comment_122594330

The original post may have been too provocative/angry, but since then people have brought up the likes of Wayne Couzens and whether there are behaviours that may be red flags to signal a potential issues with an individual.

I mean prostitution is described as one of the oldest professions and while some men would never dream of using one there are others who happily do so, and likely never consider what circumstances has a woman engaging in prostitution. I would have thought at least some men would have experience of guys who speak of women in derogatory terms or actively regard women as objects. Instead the thread has just went round in circles of denial and obfuscation. Heck I'm a woman and just through working in a pub I've seen the difference between how men behave when just with men and the completely different face they put on when wives/girlfriends are there.

Someone on boards apparently once worked with Graham Dwyer and described an incident were someone's workstation was smashed up after a disagreement with Dwyer and he was suspected. Obviously that didn't mean they knew what he would do but it was a hint to a violent, vengeful person. I was wondering whether any man has experienced 'locker room' or pub talk that maybe in retrospect stepped over the line.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594365#Comment_122594365

how very interesting indeed. It seems you are hell bent on finding problems rather than solutions here.

I’m victim blaming am I? Right fair enough. Could you please educate me therefore and explain how rape and sexual abuse can be stamped out if the perpetrators of such crimes are never brought to justice?

If a person believes strongly they can commit a crime with impunity are they going to not commit the crime based on the moral objections? It’s not common in my understanding for criminals to worry about morality too often.

You’re a very confusing individual. You want women protected from rape but you’d advise them against going to the Gardai. Or sorry you wouldn’t advice them against it you just wouldn’t recommend they do so.

Can I ask then what do you suggest women do if they are raped? I think they should contact the Gardai and seek medical assistance for any injuries they may have suffered and to make sure they are okay. That’s victim blaming is it? Being concerned for someone’s welfare in the wake of an attack and encouraging them to seek the assistance of relevant authorities is victim blaming?

**** me.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594382#Comment_122594382

oh I wouldn’t want to come across as though I’ve never heard or experienced a man or group of men discussing women or sexual activities in a rather questionable manner indeed.

Thankfully I’ve scarcely experienced men who would openly discuss their desire to rape someone either in fantasy terms (ie rape fantasies etc) or otherwise. That said I also don’t really spend much time in or around pubs and groups of people who behave that way and if a friend of mine were to do so they wouldn’t be a friend of mine any longer.

There’s quite strong research to suggest that the availability of internet porn and similar has warped young people’s minds on the idea of sex and how it’s “supposed” to work. I think there’s a lot of individuals that think women are basically just objects with a place (or places) for one’s penis to go and everything else is put to one side.

I think an attitude or thought process such as the above certainly leads to sex crime more often than would have been the case years ago. The OP openly stating she wouldn’t want or ask any rape or sexual assault victim also goes completely contrary to what rape charities and advocacy organisations would recommend which in itself is quite telling about themselves.

It’s absolute madness really. They are for all intents and purposes stating that MEN need to fix the problem and women do not need to do anything. I don’t think women need to do anything necessarily either but if you have been raped or assaulted it’s just stupid to suggest you shouldn’t report it. How can it be prevented in future if the individual responsible isn’t reported and dealt with by the law or at all?

Just if anyone can help me with that. How do you stop a rapist if they are never reported for their crime?

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594382#Comment_122594382

oh I wouldn’t want to come across as though I’ve never heard or experienced a man or group of men discussing women or sexual activities in a rather questionable manner indeed.

Thankfully I’ve scarcely experienced men who would openly discuss their desire to rape someone either in fantasy terms (ie rape fantasies etc) or otherwise. That said I also don’t really spend much time in or around pubs and groups of people who behave that way and if a friend of mine were to do so they wouldn’t be a friend of mine any longer.

There’s quite strong research to suggest that the availability of internet porn and similar has warped young people’s minds on the idea of sex and how it’s “supposed” to work. I think there’s a lot of individuals that think women are basically just objects with a place (or places) for one’s penis to go and everything else is put to one side.

I think an attitude or thought process such as the above certainly leads to sex crime more often than would have been the case years ago. The OP openly stating she wouldn’t want or ask any rape or sexual assault victim also goes completely contrary to what rape charities and advocacy organisations would recommend which in itself is quite telling about themselves.

It’s absolute madness really. They are for all intents and purposes stating that MEN need to fix the problem and women do not need to do anything. I don’t think women need to do anything necessarily either but if you have been raped or assaulted it’s just stupid to suggest you shouldn’t report it. How can it be prevented in future if the individual responsible isn’t reported and dealt with by the law or at all?

Just if anyone can help me with that. How do you stop a rapist if they are never reported for their crime?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122590851#Comment_122590851

There are bad people out there. The vast majority aren't , most let it slip

I don't know what this is based on. Could you provide some evidence of this please?

(I presume you mean that most bad people "let it slip" that they are bad. I think this case tends to show the exact opposite. One man was caught by a mixture of recklessness, accident and the good fortune that one or more police officers took a misdemeanour seriously and insisted on seizing all his devices. Many other incidents indicate that this is not the norm. Wayne Couzens being just one. TBF another example of a diligent officer is the one who "found" Graham Dwyer, so they are out there.)

BorneTobyWilde

It's reminds me of an episode of Only Fools and Horses, where Rodney drugged a girl to have sex with her.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594365#Comment_122594365

Personally I would not advise any woman who has been raped to go to the police

This is absolutely unhinged.

after all the rage and the sheer hatred of men that you’ve been spouting, your solution is, meh, don’t bother reporting it??

If a male poster had said that, what would your response have been??

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594410#Comment_122594410

I'm not a rape charity though am I? I'm talking about what I would say to a friend or relative who told me she was raped - and what I would not do is what you said, ie try to guilt trip them into reporting their rape, knowing that in the vast majority of cases, most rapes are unpunished anyway.

The solution to that is not to report more and more with the same pathetic rate of convictions.

The solution, or a start at least, would be for men to stop immediately putting up this collective shield of "you're a man hater" when any woman says anything stronger than "My God what can men do other than not be rapists?" Or worse, blame the women who don't report their rapes for "emboldening" rapists by not putting themselves through the hell of a rape trial for, in 98% of the time, the rapist to walk away. You don't think that's really what emboldens rapists? The knowledge that they can nearly always get away with it?

And that even when they don't get off scot-free, even then quite often the judge will make a comment like "Oh this rapist is too young to ruin his life by putting him in prison", or maybe, when a child rapist is selected for the Olympics - supposedly showcasing the best of humanity on the grounds that he's already paid his debt and it wouldn't be fair to punish him further. I mean, I could go on.

But hey, it's my fault for not telling a girl or a woman to put herself through all that, almost certainly for nothing.

Okaaay.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594410#Comment_122594410

Maybe some of the 30 men who learned that Pélicot was drugging his wife in order to have her raped by other men are the ones who need to answer that question, rather than the victim of rape who will be accused of all sorts of stuff during a rape trial, and almost always for the rapist to walk free at the end anyway.

I'd suggest that a rape trial where the victim is destroyed and the rapist walks away is what really emboldens future rapists, far more than the rapes where the woman doesn't even go to the police in the first place.

But I see you don't want to talk about that, and would rather just attack me personally.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594449#Comment_122594449

your “shield” clearly is accusing people of being victim blamers there. Do some soul searching.

Your attitude feeds ever more toxicity, ‘you won’t win they’ll get away with it don’t bother’ etc even in the face of talking about a case where 50 men so far have been identified and aren’t going to get away with it, and what more she fought to get the case a blast of sunshine, not just seeking her own justice but raising awareness of the problem, giving gynecologists the world over access to a very important insight that could one day prevent even just one more string of abuses from carrying on and sparking a cultural and political reckoning in the whole of France.

No no you won’t guilt trip them you’ll just advise them it’s pointless to seek justice, presuppose that even the judge will be against her and bottle it up and just start going around expecting men to ‘do better.’ How sad and warped.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594330#Comment_122594330

The problem is when abuse occurs within a family dynamic the aggressor is often turned into the victim and it can split families apart. It takes great courage and will power for the victim to pursue justice in that scenario . I wouldn't blame anyone who doesn't go to the police when faced with that.

With this in mind,

Instead of the baiting the op did in their opening post, if she is genuine, she should have asked what can society do to reduce the number of sexual crimes , because, at least , within a family unit the facilitators of the abuse are often both men and women- from the males in denial because they might be very close to the abuser, closer than other siblings, to the the wife who refuses to believe her beloved could ever do such things. So the victim can end up being demonised and ostracised for speaking up. There was a poster on here ages ago who actually spoke about going through all this but she refused to be silent. I can only salute her courage and bravery.

Former Former Former

I think it’s now extremely clear that the OP is far less concerned for the welfare of rape victims - or justice for the perpetrators - than she is about using them as tools to further her own agenda.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594470#Comment_122594470

And 20 more are getting away with it. I wonder why the police aren't even looking for them any more (as testifed by a police officer on the first day of the trial, FYI. Not to mention the 30 who knew about the rapes but didn't bother reporting it, which is itself against the law in France. Nobody seems to be looking for them either.

But yeah, it's my fault for saying that I would prioritise a rape victim's mental health over the lottery where 98% of rapists just walk way in the end anyway, leaving her to try to pick up the pieces of being re victimised a second time by the process.

I notice you have nothing to say about the poster I was responding to, who said rape victims should be guilt tripped into reporting their rape on the grounds that other women will also be raped if they don't.

I think you need to examine your own attitude here. Not mine.

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594470#Comment_122594470

The reality is that rape is one of the few crimes were the victim is cross examined and their motives, attire and demeanour is brought into question. All an accused rapist has to do is claim it is consensual and the onus is on the prosecution to prove this is not so, and in the process the behaviours of the victim then becomes part of the evidence. I understand why from a legal perspective, everyone deserved a fair trial and there have been evil women who make false accusations. That is a hugely traumatic thing to go through on top of the original assault and the subsequent testing of a rape victim (swabs of intimate areas, examining their skin and genitals for evidence of bruising or cuts). And a rapist may very well get off because of the element of doubt. Because, often there is no perfect victim. Victim and rapist often know each other, women are often careful about outright fobbing off a man as their reaction can be unpredictable so an element of doubt can be brought in. Their have been rape trials were the sexiness of a woman's underwear have been brought up by the defense as evidence.

If I had a friend who had been raped, I would support them in whatever they needed to do. I would urge them to report it and be tested as a positive hit on a DNA database may lead to identification of a hitherto unidentified serial offender. However with regards to a trial I would understand if they didn't want to go through it and would be worried if my friend expected that it would be a cathartic experience as it may not be. It might in fact be the complete opposite. If I were raped, I would probably only participate in a trial if I knew it was an open and shut case, e.g. he denied any sexual contact and there was DNA evidence to prove otherwise. That's the reality of the situation

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594449#Comment_122594449

But it’s my fault because I’m a man and apparently not doing enough? It’s not good enough I abhor and don’t engage in such sexual violence towards women but it’s my fault yeah?

okaaaaaaay.